17 replies to this topic

[RobertK]

The Vimana vatthu atthakatha: "Chattamanavakavimanavannana" )p365 PTS This relates the story of a man who merely took refuge in the Buddha and the five precepts and was killed that same day. He was reborn in the deva world . As a deva he comes and relates:
 

QUOTE

"behold how through few teaching I have gone to the happy destiny and reached happiness..Those who continually hear Dhamma from you, these methinks, touch the deathless (nibbana) the peace."

robert

[RobertK]

http://groups.yahoo....p/message/60091
I thought Sarah (Abbott) clarified the issues in the following exchange:

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D: Our point of contention is that I think that understanding concept and understanding reality are quite distinct. The difference is not a matter of degree but is a fundamental distinction.
....

S: With respect, I don't think I've ever suggested otherwise. I thought the point of contention here was whether one needed to hear the DhammaVinaya in order to develop satipatthana in this very life.

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Now, instead of tidying up, I am going to open another can of worms. Sarah may not have "suggested otherwise" but I have. In my previous post, I said that right intellectual understanding was a degree of Path consciousness - even if only a tiny degree. Certainly there is a "fundamental distinction" in that path consciousness is supramundane and has nibbana as its object, whereas the other is ordinary and has a concept as its object. However, they both have the rare and wonderful cetasika, samma-ditthi (in a form that only occurs during a Buddha's sasana), and therefore, in that way, their difference is "a matter of degree."

Having said that, I am really not bothered either way. As far as I am concerned, we can call it a matter of degree or we can call it a fundamental distinction. Sarah went on to say that the main point of contention in this thread has been whether we needed to hear the Dhamma Vinaya in order to develop satipatthana in this very life.

It would suit me to discuss just that, but I'm still not sure: is the question of "matter of degree" v's "fundamental distinction" important in this thread? Is it central in deciding whether the Dhamma Vinaya has to be heard before satipatthana can occur?

Getting back to my earlier attempt: It tried in the following way to summarise our conversation:

You said there could be no such thing as right conceptual explanation. However, you did concede that some explanations could be more helpful (in illuminating the world) than others.

I said that being helpful in that way would make them right.

You said you saw two distinctions between right and helpful:

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D: First, is that "right" is so closely allied with "samma" as in samma-ditthi, samma-vayama, etc. of the path. I think it would be a terrible mistake to mix up a "right concept" with the path sammas;

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The possibility of such a mistake is very remote. When talking about path consciousness, we use "right" to describe the eight cetasikas that act as path factors. We never use it to describe the objects (nibanna and
conditioned dhammas) they experience.

When talking about Dhamma explanations (e.g., "Volition is a universal cetasika") we say, "That is right" or "That is correct." And sometimes (e.g., "Volition is control over the arising of dhammas") we say, "That is wrong."

I don't see a problem with that use of right and wrong.

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D: Otherwise, one would be sorely tempted to think of thinking of Dhamma, reading about Dhamma, analyzing Dhamma as "techniques" of the "path."

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Neither you nor I regard Dhamma study as a "technique for enlightenment." To do so would entail belief in a self [that is presently unenlightened and will, one day, become enlightened].

Without regarding right conceptualisation of Dhamma as a technique, we can regard it as a citta that is accompanied by panna and that has a concept (of Dhamma) as its object. In that way, we can understand it to be a factor that leads to enlightenment.

We can, and must, understand (from the Kitagiri and other Suttas) that association with good friends, hearing the true Dhamma and wise consideration of the Dhamma are factors leading to enlightenment. Without those three forms of pariyatti there can be no fourth factor, patipatti (satipatthana), and without pariyatti and patipatti there can be no pativedha (enlightenment).

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D: For this reason I don't like the formulation "right conceptual formulation." I don't think we can stress too strongly that the path is a path of realization, not of cogitation or any other techniques for conjuring understanding from a prescriptive practice.

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But Dan, cogitation does not have to be a technique. It can be an intellectual realisation and, therefore, pariyatti - a first step towards the eightfold path.

Whenever there is wise consideration of the Dhamma (a factor for enlightenment) there is no idea of a technique for bringing about future enlightenment. There is panna-cetasika, which rightly understands in theory that the present moment is the entire world.

Getting a bit personal here, Dan: I have always assumed you to understand this subtle but vital distinction. However, lately, I have begun to suspect you don't have a firm grip on it after all. You seem to equate Dhamma study with formal practice. That means you are missing the vital distinction between pariyatti and technique.

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D: The sammas of the path are notably different from conceptual understandings

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Different, yes, but right understandings all the same. Dhammas can be understood directly or indirectly. In both cases it is the same cetasika - panna (samma-ditthi) - that does the understanding. Is the "notable difference" a suddenly occurring one? Remember the gradual training (Kitagiri Sutta MN 70). I imagine that intellectual understanding develops to an extent that is way beyond anything we are currently used to. At that stage, direct understanding will flow almost seamlessly, as a natural progression.

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D: and do not arise from conceptual understandings,

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It is obvious to me that greater understandings develop from lesser understandings. Why do you find that so unacceptable?

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<. . .>
D: Second, a particular explanation can be helpful to a particular person at a particular time but be the cause for a different person to stumble on a different occasion. Is that explanation right, or is it wrong? I'd say that it was wrong but helpful to the first person; and wrong as well as unhelpful to the second person.

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I can see why you might not want to call a concept right (because ultimately it has no right or wrong characteristics), but I can't see why you are calling all concepts wrong.

Moving on: You then wrote something that I misread, and thereby sidetracked the discussion. You wrote:

-----------------------------------------

2. I don't believe that "right conceptualization" is a condition for samma-ditthi. However, I do think conceptualization plays a role in defining the limits to how deep insight can go.


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I took "defining the limits" to mean, "extending the range" and so I wrote:

Here again, to the uninformed observer, the second sentence seems to contradict the first. Doesn't 'plays a role in' mean the same as 'is a condition for?'

----------------

You replied:

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D: No, no. The subsiding of clinging to a conceptual formulation (i.e., the non-arising of ditthi) is indeed a condition for samma-ditthi. But I don't see the building of detailed and elaborate conceptual models and then the subsequent clinging to the models as "right conceptualizations" that are necessary precursors of samma-ditthi (i.e., as part of the path) as helpful or desirable. More of a hindrance. The building of thicker and thicker conceptualizations under the guise of "development of Right Understanding via Right Cogitation and Intellectualization" assigns an extra factor into the path (samma-papanca) and makes it more difficult to see rightly (samma-ditthi).

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Whew, this is heavy going! Or is it just me? Or is it just a matter of your not seeing the distinction between pariyatti and technique?

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D: The "plays a role in defining limits" does not mean "is a condition for." I think everyone who pops into dsg and participates in the discussions has developed a degree of samma-ditthi through satipatthana.
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Whoa there! Before, you were saying that satipatthana could occur outside a Buddha's dispensation. I thought that was an understandable misconception, considering that there have been so many great thinkers throughout history. Now you are saying satipatthana is commonplace. You are saying we have all experienced satipatthana. (!) You are saying that at various times in all of our pasts panna has arisen to directly know a paramattha dhamma. (!)

But we DSG people can't even agree on what a paramattha dhamma is - or even whether there is such a thing as a paramattha dhamma! What evidence is there that we have had profound insights despite our abysmal ignorance?

-------------------------------
D: Samma-ditthi arises and passes away whether there is Buddhist cogitation about it beforehand or not. Then, there are two questions: (1) how deep was the understanding?

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It is very deep! Direct knowledge of paramattha dhammas is profound - the exclusive domain of the wise.

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D: (2) what happened in the aftermath of the understanding? My working hypothesis is that these two questions play off one another. If a particular conceptualization is firmly held to and grasped because of years of accumulated habit and expectation and speculation about it, then clinging to that conceptualization (i.e., ditthi) is more likely to rush in and co-opt the nascent understanding, remaking it in the ditthi image.

One way this could play out is as follows. Suppose someone thinks:

"The arising of samma-ditthi depends on having a detailed theoretical knowledge first. Samma-ditthi then arises out of samma-papanca in some mysterious way that I will never be able to understand because satipatthana is incredibly deep, and I can't really hope to experience it in this lifetime."

If someone were to hold such an opinion, I would think that development of understanding would be virtually precluded because any time understanding did arise, it would immediately be swamped by doubt and ditthi.

---------------

Dan, that sounds to me like, "Beware the Dhamma-Vinaya!"

It really isn't necessary to equate thinking (which can be kusala or akusala) with papanca (which is always akusala).

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D: Or, suppose if someone thinks:

"The arising of kusala is beyond the control of Self. God alone is the author of kusala."

When a moment of understanding arose, ditthi would rush in, prompting "Kusala is not-self. Praise God!" Clinging to Self would be diminished, but insight to the level of "sabbe dhammaa anatta" would be virtually precluded.

-----------------------

I won't comment on what might happen if an eternity-believer were to experience satipatthana because I don't agree that could ever happen. I don't believe there could be a sudden jump from strong eternity view to right view at the level of satipatthana. (Not in a path that the Buddha described as "gradual.")

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KH: The term 'right conceptualisation' is a new one that seems to have originated in this DSG thread. I assume it is same as the more commonly used, 'right intellectual understanding.' The only difference might be that it refers to the citta as a whole more than to jus panna-cetasika.

To my mind, 'right conceptualisation' must ultimately refer to any mind-door citta that has panna (that at least knows the difference between concepts and realities) as one of its cetasikas and that has a concept as its object. The Eightfold Path, also, is a mind-door citta that has panna as one of its cetasikas, but it has nibbana as its object. Surely, therefore, right conceptualisation can be seen as a degree of Path consciousness. (?)

D: I don't think this makes any sense, Ken. The characterization of a path moment as samma or miccha does not depend on the object that is cognized. It depends on the mode of cognition (e.g., accompanied by lobha, or accompanied by the samma path factors, etc.).

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That's right, it doesn't depend on the object cognised, it depends on the presence or absence of panna. Panna with nibbana as object is a factor of the eightfold path. Panna with a conditioned dhamma as object is a factor of the mundane (five-or-sixfold) path. Panna with a concept of dhammas as object is a factor of the intellectual path (pariyatti).

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KH: Admittedly, it would be a tiny degree of Path consciousness, but, even so, one that was precious and very difficult to obtain. Just look at all the hard working Dhamma students here at DSG. With so much disagreement over the basic concepts, there would, at most, be a small number of us who had attained the stage of Right Conceptualisation. :-)


D: You are just making stuff up about "Right Conceptualization," aren't you! There's not a word about it in the Tipitaka. I only read about samma-ditthi, samma-vayama, samma-samadhi, samma-sati. Nothing about samma-papanca or samma-panyati! But so much effort to build a theory to accomodate these new sammas...

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Putting aside made-up theories of "[i]right conceptualisation,[i]" what is your opinion on samma-ditthi arising to take a concept as its object? When the Buddha spoke about things hitherto unknown - dukkha and the five khandhas - did his audience understand his words? Was there, at such times, samma-ditthi with concepts as object? You have described something like that to Ken O, but you made it sound more like a dangerous wrong view that a profound step towards enlightenment.

Ken H

[RobertK]

In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@y...> wrote:
Lucy

Lucy wrote:
Hi Jon

I misunderstood your use of the words seeing and understanding. I'm more used to reading these words to imply experiential, largely non- conceptual realisations - especially when addressing the uprooting of kilesa - So the way I read your post was along the lines of "the effective way to deal with lobha is to realise enlightenment" - which is very true, of course, but unlikely to happen to this citta-stream in a hurry. Sorry if I got you wrong.

J: No apology necessary. I believe my posts are easily mis-read in this way, so I'm sure the problem lies with my manner of expression rather than the reader!

L: I agree it's useful to know lobha etc. You see it arise ( = it's already been and gone), you examine it inside out, measure it, identify it, give it a name, look for the roots, project the consequences of its manifestation, remember the teachings, recognise that it's a hindrance, etc. .... and then, what do you do ? That was really the gist of my question. How to go about relinquishing the objects of attachment? and relinquishing the tendency to develop attachment? on a moment to moment basis.

J: I'm sure we would all like to have less kilesa (or at least less of the kind of kilesa that we recognise as such). But while less kilesa does indeed result from the development of the path, this doesn't mean that the development of the path is `tied' in any sense to having less kilesa in our lives now. From my reading, the path is developed if there is awareness of a presently arising reality, whatever that reality may be, and it doesn't matter whether it is kusala or akusala, nama or rupa, internal or eternal. The reduction of the kilesa is something that occurs as a natural consequence of the development of awareness and the ensuing understanding, but should not be the focus of that development.

L: Having the objective of having less kilesa in our life now is, I believe, to fall into the trap of expectations. It inevitably inclines us to a form of practice that involves suppression in one form or another.

I know the answer is cultivation, but expedient means can help to keep the mind on the cultivation track, you need to aspire to cultivation and remember to keep it going. At least, in my example of offering hills, if you have an accident and die right there, citta will be pointing in the right direction. At best, you develop a habit of remembering the Path when you're out and about clinging to everything you see. It's all training!

J: It's training only if it's kusala and, in particular, if it's right view :-).

L: I think that proper study of understanding at a theoretical level is the most useful preparation of the soil for the cultivation of the real thing.

The theoretical level on its own doesn't work very well for me, though it may well work for others. This mind needs a lot more field work on all fronts. It may be that in science one acquires a very healthy disrespect for anything "theoretical" and you can't really trust something you always take with a pinch of salt. Now, combined with the lab / field work, it starts making more sense.

J: Agreed that the theoretical level on its own is not the development of the path. But a proper theoretical basis is indispensable to the development of the path, I think.

[RobertK]

Characteristic is the English translation of lakkhana. Ti lakkahana is the three general characteristics ie. anicca, dukkha and anatta of all realities except nibbana. But all realities also have visesa lakkhana - specific characteristics - and before the general charcateristics can be penetrated there must be the insight into the specific. So the first stage of insight is called namarupaparicheddanan - the delimitation of mind and matter - and this insight clearly knows that mind and matter have very different characteristics.

In the Mulapariyaya Sutta (see Bodhi "root of existence") the Buddha explains that

'the uninstructed worldling perceives earth as earth......and he perceives the seen as the seen ..the heard as he heard...the sensed as the sensed..the cognised as the cognised..Having perceived the cognised as the cognised he conceives himself as the cognised..in the cognised...apart from the cognised..the cognised is mine..What is the reason? Because it has not being fully understood.

Just some quotes from the commentary and tika to this sutta: p39

"they bear their own characteristics, thus they are dhammas: This is said for the purpose of showing that these are mere dhammas endowed with the specific natures devoid of such attributions as that of 'being' etc... These dhammas are discovered as ultimately real actualities. And although there is no distinction between these dhammas and their characteristics the exposition makes a distinction as a mere metaphorical device. Also they are borne, or they are discerned, known, according to their specific nature, thus they are dhammas."

____________

1. "knows how to develop wisdom" - How? Is it initially by the study of texts, and then what?

____________

The uninstructed worldling knows something of the characteristics of dhammas, he knows when he craves or feels angry. He can experience all types of subtle vibrations and hardness and coldness etc. If he trains himself by yoga etc. he can know that these are changing and many other things. But he conceives them wrongly as being me or mine etc.. The enligthened one experiences all these same dhammas but with the eye of wisdom.

The "uninstructed worldling" (p40 of Mulapariyaya) "needs to be taught, because he possesses neither learning(agama) nor achievement. For he who possesses neither the learning running counter to the activity of conceiving because he has neglected to study, question, and discriminate the aggregates (khandhas), elements, sense bases (ayatanas) truths, law of conditionality and foundations of mindfulness etc , nor spiritual achievement because he has failed to achieve what should be achived by practice is said to be 'uninstructed'.

Between the enlightened ones and the 'uninstructed worldling' there is the "good worldling" who is learning and developing correctly:

p41 "The Buddha, the kinsman of the sun, speaks of the worldling in a twofold way. One is the worldling blinded by darkness and the other is the worldling noble and good"

Bhikkhu Bodhi notes in his introduction to Mulapariyaya p14 That

"in the stage of full understanding of the known, the gross object is analysed into its constituent dhammas and each dhamma is delimited in its distinct characteristic, function, manifestation, and proximate cause. This procedure rectifies the common sense assumption of simple substantial unites, disclosing in its place a world of composite wholes brought temporarily together through a concatenation of conditions"

robert

[RobertK]

M II, no 95, Cankiisutta.

It is long, for the whole sutta:
<http://www.metta.lk/...ajjhima-Nikaya/
Majjhima2/095-canki-e1.html >

'Good Gotama, now, I know the realising of the truth. How is this attained? Good Gotama, teach me that attainment and realization.'

'Bharadvàja, practising, developing and making much of those same things lead to the realization of the truth. I declare that the realization of the truth is this much.'

'Good Gotama, now I know the realising of the truth. What things are of much help for realising the truth?'

'Bharadvàja, the fourfold endeavour is of much help for the realisation of the truth. If not for the fourfold endeavour, the realisation of the truth is not. Therefore the fourfold endeavour is of much help for the realisation of the truth.'

'Good Gotama, for the fourfold endeavour, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, weighing [1] is of much help for the fourfold endeavour. Without the weighing there is no fourfold effort, therefore weighing is of much help for the fourfold endeavour.'

'Good Gotama, for weighing, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, struggling [2] is of much help for weighing. Without that struggle there is no weighing, therefore that struggle is of much help for weighing'

'Good Gotama, for struggling, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, interest, is of much help for struggling. Without that interest, there is no struggle, therefore that interest is of much help for struggling.'

'Good Gotama, for interest, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, rightful speculation [3] is of much help for interest. Without the rightful speculating mind, there is no interest, therefore the rightful speculative mind is of much help for interest.'

'Good Gotama, for a rightful speculative mind, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, examining the meanings in the Teaching, is of much help for a rightful speculative mind. Without that examining of meanings in the Teaching, there is norightful speculation, therefore examining
meanings in the Teaching is of much help for a speculative mind.'

'Good Gotama, for examining meanings in the Teaching, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, bearing the Teaching in the mind, is of much help for examining meanings in the Teaching. Without bearing the Teaching in mind, there is no examination of meanings, therefore bearing the Teaching in mind is of much help for examining meanings in the Teaching.'

'Good Gotama, for bearing the Teaching in the mind, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, listening to the Teaching, is of much help for bearing the Teaching in the mind. Without listening to the Teaching, there is no bearing of the Teaching, therefore listening to the Teaching, is of much help for bearing the Teaching in the mind.'

'Good Gotama, for listening to the Teaching, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, lending ear, is of much help for listening to the Teaching. Without lending ear there is no listening to the Teaching, therefore, lending ear, is of much help for listening to the Teaching.'

'Good Gotama, for lending ear, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, associating, is of much help for lending ear. Without association there is no lending ears, therefore associating is of much help for lending ear.'

'Good Gotama, for associating, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, approaching, is of much help for associating Without an approach there is no association, therefore approaching is of much help for associating.'

'Good Gotama, for approaching, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, faith, is of much help for approaching Without faith there is no approaching, therefore faith is of much help for approaching.'...

[1] Weighing is of much help for the fourfold endeavour (padhànassa kho bharadvàja tulanà bahukàrà). The fourfold endeavours are pushing the mind forward earnestly, to dispel arisen demerit to promote non arising of not arisen demerit To promote the arising of not arisen merit and to see the development and completion of arisen merit. For this kind of mental work to happen, we should mentally weigh our activities by body speech and mind. We should be aware of the activities at the six doors of mental contact.

[2] Struggling is of much help for weighing (tulanàya kho bharadvàja ussàho bahukàro hoti). This is a mental struggle. It consists of thinking and pondering to sort out the correct and comes to be right thinking.

[3] Right speculation is of much help for interest (chandassa kho Bharadvàja dhammanijjhànakhanti bahukàrà). Right speculation falls to the category of right thinking. So this is falling to the Noble Eightfold path, with right view at the foremost.
--------

[RobertK]

"There are these five rewards in listening to the Dhamma. Which five?

"One hears what one has not heard before. One clarifies what one has
heard before. One gets rid of doubt. One's views are made straight.
One's mind grows serene.

"These are the five rewards in listening to the Dhamma."
http://www.accesstoi...5.202.than.html

[RobertK]

Commentary to samyutta Nikaya (note 313 ) page 809 Bodhi
"for when learning declines the practice declines, and when the practice declines achievement declines. But when learning becomes full, persons rich in learning fill up the practice, and those filling up the practice fill up achievement. Thus when learning etc are increasing my Dispensation increases just like the full moon.

[RobertK]

Sangiti sutta
Sangitti sutta

"

The vimuttayatanam The 5 bases of deliverance:
XXV. "Five bases of deliverance; here
a. the teacher or a respected fellow disciple teaches a monk Dhamma.
And as he receives the teaching, he gains a grasp of both the spirit
and the letter of the teaching. At this, joy arises in him, and from
this joy, delight; and by this delight his senses are calmed, he
feels happiness as a result, and with this happiness his mind is
established [he attains nibban];
b. he has not heard it thus, but in the course of the teaching
Dhamma to others he has learnt it by heart as he has heard it, or
c. as he is chanting the Dhamma... or
d. ...when he applies his mind to the Dhamma, thinks and ponders
over it and concentrates his attention on it; or
e. When he has properly grasped some concentration sign, has well
considered it, applied his mind to it, and has well penetrated it
with wisdom. At this, joy arises in him; and from this joy, delight,
and by this delight his senses are calmed, he feels happiness as a
result, and with this happiness his mind is established.

[RobertK]

The uninstructed worldling knows something of the characteristics of dhammas, he knows when he craves or feels angry. He can experience all types of subtle vibrations and hardness and coldness etc. If he trains himself by yoga etc. he can know that these are changing and many other things. But he conceives them wrongly as being me or mine etc.. The enligthened one experiences all these same dhammas but with the eye of wisdom.

QUOTE
The "uninstructed worldling" (p40 of Mulapariyaya) "needs to be taught, because he possesses neither learning(agama) nor achievement. For he who possesses neither the learning running counter to the activity of conceiving because he has neglected to study, question, and discriminate the aggregates (khandhas), elements, sense bases (ayatanas) truths, law of conditionality and foundations of mindfulness etc , nor spiritual achievement because he has failed to achieve what should be achived by practice is said to be 'uninstructed'

.


Between the enlightened ones and the 'uninstructed worldling' there is the "good worldling" who is learning and developing correctly:

QUOTE
p41 "The Buddha, the kinsman of the sun, speaks of the worldling in a twofold way. One is the worldling blinded by darkness and the other is the worldling noble and good"

[RobertK]

From right study and development we find that what we had once thought were our strenghts turn out to be faults:our confident nature is mostly mana(conceit). The calmness we cherish only clinging to quiet; our directness mostly aversion. Also it sometimes happens that the teachers we first thought so wise turn out to be stuck in some place or another. In the Intro. to the Vibhanga(Abhidhamma pitaka) (Pali text society[b]) writes "It is all very well to say 'I know what is right and what is wrong'The fact is very few people do know when it comes to the precison of mental behaviour essential to correct development toward release. It is this exactitude of behaviour;mental physical and the conseqeunces thereof, that the scriptures elucidate in detail".[i]

Iggelden carries on "

It is all very well to say 'I know what needs to be done to break the continuity of rebirth and death'. In fact very few people know of even the most elementary reasons for the continuity of process, let alone of breaking it. It is the detailed description, analysis and reasons given for this cyclic process that the scriptures spend so much care in putting before us. It is all very well to say 'What do I want to know all these
definitions of terms for, it only clutters the mind?'The question is, though, how many people when they seriously ask themselves as to the extent and range of some such apparently simple terms as greed, hatred and ignorance, can know their full and proper implications and manifestations within their own thoughts and actions..This the scriptures are at pains to make clear to even the dullest reader.."Endquote

.

[RobertK]

http://groups.yahoo....p/message/73315
from scott

M: "...'conceptual right view':

"There are these five rewards in listening to the Dhamma. Which five?

"One hears what one has not heard before. One clarifies what one has heard before. One gets rid of doubt. One's views are made straight. One's mind grows serene.

"These are the five rewards in listening to the Dhamma."

http://www.accesstoi...5.202.than.html


Scott: Sorry for the delay, Mike. One motherboard later...

After reading 'Perfections' I read the Cariyaapi.taka A.t.thakathaa, A Treatise on the Paaramiis (this is in Bh. Bodhi's Brahmajaala Sutta and its Commentaries, p. 271), and came across the following, regarding the perfection of patience:

"...And: 'When there is patience, the mind becomes concentrated, all formations appear to reflection as impermanent and suffering; all dhammas as not-self, nibbaana as unconditioned, deathless, peaceful, and sublime, and the Buddha-qualities as endowed with inconceivable and immearsurable potency. Then established in acquiescence in conformity, the groundlessness of all 'I-making' and 'mine-making' becomes evident to reflection thus: 'Mere dhammas alone exist, devoid of self or of anything pertaining to a self. They arise and pass away in accordance with their conditions. They do not come from anywhere, they do not go anywhere, they are not established anywhere. There is no agency in anything whatsoever.'..."

In a footnote:

"Annulomiya.m khantiya.m .thito. 'Acquiescence in conformity' indicates the stage in the development of insight where the meditator can accept the basic truths of his contemplation without yet having fully apprehended them by mature wisdom. Khanti here signifies the acceptance of difficult to understand doctrines rather than patience in the ordinary sense..."

And from p. 247:

"...Patience is mentioned after energy:...c)in order to state the causal basis for serenity immediately after the basis for exertion, for restlessness due to excessive activity is abandoned through reflective acquiescence in the Dhamma (dhammanijjhaanakkhanti)..."

The footnote:

"Dhammanijjhaanakkhanti. The word khanti, ordinarily used to mean patience in the sense of forbearance of the wrongs of others and the endurance of hardships, is sometimes also used to signify the intellectual acceptance of doctrines which are not yet completely clear to understanding. Patience thus becomes a virtue not only of the will but of the intellect as well. It is a 'suspension of disbelief' born of trust, a willingness to acquiesce in propositions baffling or even scandalous to the rational understanding in the confidence that the growth of wisdom will transform this acquiescence into clear and certain knowledge. The compound dhammanijjhaanakhanti seems to indicate an intermediate stage in the process of transformation, where the understanding can accept by way of reflection the article initially assented to in faith, without fully
grasping it by immediate insight."

Scott: Relevant? I'd say so, and very cool as well. By the way, I'd say 'process of transformation' ought to be read as 'development of pa~n~na' since the notion of transformation misleads and blurs the truth of arising and falling away.

Sincerely,

Scott.

[RobertK]

From Scott

Sammohavinodanii:

2075. "...Anulomika.m khanti.m ('conformable acceptance') and so on are all synonyms for understanding. For that is in conformity since it conforms by showing non-opposition to the five reasons for the aforesaid sphere of work and so on. Likewise, it is in conformity since it conforms with behaviour beneficial to beings, it conforms to the Truth of the Path and it conforms owing to conforming to the highest meaning, nibbaana. And it accepts (khamati), bears, is able to see all these reasons, thus it is acceptance (khanti). 'It sees' is di.t.thi ('view'). 'It chooses' is ruci ('choice'). 'It perceives with the senses' is muti ('sensing'). 'It observes' is pekkho ('observance'). And all these things (dhamma) called the five aggregates on being studied (nijjhaayamaanaa) again and again in accordance with impermanence, suffering and no-self, accept (khamanti) that study (nijjhaana); thus it is dhammanijjhaanakkhanti ('acceptance of study things').

[RobertK]

from Connie http://groups.yahoo....p/message/73458

"Just as a man who has found satisfaction in the choicest of tastes will not yearn for other tastes of an inferior kind, so too, dear sir, one will no longer have a liking for the doctrines of those many other ascetics and brahmins, after one has listened to Master Gotama's Dhamma, be it discourses, mixed prose, expositions or marvellous accounts.'

"Just as a man weakened by hunger who comes upon a honey cake, wherever he eats of it he will enjoy a sweet, delicious taste; so too, dear sir, whatever one hears of Master Gotama's Dhamma, be it discourses, mixed prose, expositions or marvellous accounts, one will derive from it satisfaction and confidence in one's heart."

Whatever one hears ... one will derive from it happiness and joy ... one's sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair will vanish ... all one's affliction, fatigue and feverish burning are allayed.

Numerical Discourses. 112, Praising the Buddha. Book of Fives.

[RobertK]

From Nina van gorkom

http://groups.yahoo....p/message/81331

Pariyatti vs patipatti - take 3,853


Dear Ealaine,

Op 17-jan-2008, om 22:06 heeft shennieca het volgende geschreven:

> Can you please explain what is meant by "Reading a sutta
> and 'meditate' about it is bhaavanaa" ? Did our Buddha say that it's
> possible to do so? Which sutta is it?
-------
N: Rob K gave you many quotes. One of the Recollections mentioned in
the Visuddhimagga is Recollection of the Dhamma, Ch VII, 68-89. well
worth reading. Dhamma includes not only supramundane Dhamma but also
Dhamma of the scriptures.
§ 71: <And when listened to, it does good through learning it because
it suppresses the hindrances, thus it is good in the beginning. And
when made the way of practice it does good through the way being
entered upon because it brings the bliss of serenity and insight,
thus it is good in the middle. And when it has thus been made the way
of practice and the fruit of the way is ready, it does good through
the fruit of the way because it brings [unshakeable] equipose, thus
it is good in the end.>
We read in § 88: <When he encounters an opportunity for
transgression, he has vivid awareness of conscience and shame on
recollecting the well-regulatedness of the Dhamma. And if he
penetrates no higher, he is at least headed for a happy destiny.>
This covers also your other questions and Rob K's answers.
Nina.

[RobertK]

From Venerable Dhammanando

Pariyatti as the Root of the Sāsanā

(From the Atthakathā to Anguttara Nikāya, Ekanipāta, Dutiyapamādādivagga, 42nd sutta)




And in that place [Maṇḍalārāma Monastery in Kallagāma] there arose a discussion among the elders as to whether the root of the Dispensation consisted in practice (paṭipatti) or in study of the Teaching (pariyatti). Those elders who were wearers of rag-robes said, “practice is the root,” and those elders who were teachers of Dhamma said, “study is the root.”

Then some elders said, “we cannot decide between your two opinions merely on the basis of your assertions. Support them by quoting a saying spoken by the Conqueror.”

“It will be no trouble to quote a saying,” replied both sides. Then the elders who were wearers of rag-robes quoted these passages:

“Subhadda, if bhikkhus in this very Dispensation were to live rightly, the world would not be empty of arahants.”

“Your majesty, the Teacher’s Dispensation is rooted in practice and has practice as its pith. While practice is maintained, the Dispensation lasts.”

After listening to these sayings, the elders who were teachers of Dhamma then quoted this saying as proof of their own claim:

“For as long the Suttantas endure, for as long as the Vinaya is taught,
For just that long will there be light, like that after the sun has risen.
But when the Suttantas are no more, and when the Vinaya is forgotten,
There will be darkness in the world, like that after the sun has set.
While the Suttantas are protected, then is practice protected too;
A sage, being grounded in practice, fails not to reach peace from the bonds.”

When this saying was quoted, the elders who were wearers of rag-robes became silent and the speech of the teachers of Dhamma prevailed.

Neither among a hundred bulls, nor among a thousand, will even a single bull ensure the continuance of his line in the absence of a cow. Even so, neither among a hundred bhikkhus intent on insight, nor among a thousand, will even a single bhikkhu penetrate the noble path in the absence of pariyatti.

Marks are engraved in rock to show the location of buried treasure; for as long as those marks endure, the treasure is not reckoned as lost. Even so, for as long as pariyatti endures, the Teacher’s Dispensation is not reckoned to have disappeared.
(Manorathapūraṇī i. 92-3, my translation)

[RobertK]

When, Bhikkhus, a Noble Disciple listens carefully to the Dhamma,
alert with keen ears,
attending to it as a matter of crucial concern, as something of vital
importance, directing
his entire mind to it, in that very moment the Five Mental Hindrances
are absent in him.
On that occasion the Seven Links to Awakening develop towards
complete fulfilment...>
Source (edited extract):
The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya.
Book [V: 95-6] section 46: The Links. 38: Unhindered...

[RobertK]

from sarha abbott
http://groups.yahoo..../message/121643
Here is a quote from the Paramatthadiipanii naama Udaana.t.thakathaa - The
Udaana Commentary; a discussion of the terms 'eva.m' and 'suta,m' used by
Aananda:
>
> "...And in proclaiming this utterance of eva.m, elucidating the paying of
methodical attention in the manner already stated, he elucidates the fact that
such things had been carefully considered by him in his mind; that they had been
well pierced by (right view). For the Dhamma of the texts, when carefully
considered in the mind after the manner of 'In this case it is morality that is
talked of, in this case concentration, in this case insight - to such an extent
are there sequential teachings here and so on, when pierced by thoroughly
investigating - after the manner of 'Such is form; to such extent there is form'
(cp DA 462 or D ii 35) and so forth - things formed and formless; spoken of in
this place and that, by way of (right) view either consisting of reflection
upon, and approval of, Dhamma accompanied by hearsay and the consideration of
reasons, or else reckoned as full understanding of the known, is one bringing
happiness and well-being to oneself and others. In proclaiming this utterance
suta.m, elucidating his link with hearing, he elucidates 'Abundant are the
things heard by me; learned by heart, verbally familiarised' (cp M i 213 etc.).
For texts are (all) subject to application of the ear. In the complete
fulfillment of the meaning and formulation of the Dhamma as a result of its
being well proclaimed, he generates regard (concerning same), by saying that the
one not hearing, with due regard, Dhamma with its meaning and formulation
completely fulfilled becomes one completely excluded from its benefit, that
Dhamma is to be heard with care..."
>

[RobertK]

§ 125. A beginning point for ignorance -- [such that one might say], 'Before this, ignorance did not exist; then it came into play' -- cannot be discerned. This has been said. Nevertheless, it can be discerned, 'Ignorance comes from this condition.' And I tell you, ignorance has its nutriment. It is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for ignorance? The five hindrances... And what is the nutriment for the five hindrances? The three forms of misconduct... And what is the nutriment for the three forms of misconduct? Lack of restraint of the senses... And what is the nutriment for lack of restraint of the senses? Lack of mindfulness & alertness... And what is the nutriment for lack of mindfulness & alertness? Inappropriate attention... And what is the nutriment for inappropriate attention? Lack of conviction... And what is the nutriment for lack of conviction? Not hearing the true Dhamma... And what is the nutriment for not hearing the true Dhamma? Associating with people who are not truly good, (or: not associating with people who are truly good)...

Just as when the gods pour rain in heavy drops & crash thunder on the upper mountains: The water, flowing down along the slopes, fills the mountain clefts & rifts & gullies. When the mountain clefts & rifts & gullies are full, they fill the little ponds. When the little ponds are full, they fill the big lakes... the little rivers... the big rivers. When the big rivers are full, they fill the great ocean, and thus is the great ocean fed, thus is it filled. In the same way, when not associating with truly good people is brought to fulfillment, it fulfills [the conditions for] not hearing the true Dhamma... lack of conviction... inappropriate attention... lack of mindfulness & alertness... lack of restraint of the senses... the three forms of misconduct... the five hindrances. When the five hindrances are brought to fulfillment, they fulfill [the conditions for] ignorance. Thus is ignorance fed, thus is it brought to fulfillment.

Now, I tell you, clear knowing & release have their nutriment. They are not without nutriment. And what is their nutriment? The seven factors for Awakening... And what is the nutriment for the seven factors for Awakening? The four frames of reference... And what is the nutriment for the four frames of reference? The three forms of right conduct... And what is the nutriment for the three forms of right conduct? Restraint of the senses... And what is the nutriment for restraint of the senses? Mindfulness & alertness... And what is the nutriment for mindfulness & alertness? Appropriate attention... And what is the nutriment for appropriate attention? Conviction... And what is the nutriment for conviction? Hearing the true Dhamma... And what is the nutriment for hearing the true Dhamma? Associating with people who are truly good...

Just as when the gods pour rain in heavy drops & crash thunder on the upper mountains: The water, flowing down along the slopes, fills the mountain clefts & rifts & gullies... the little ponds... the big lakes... the little rivers... the big rivers. When the big rivers are full, they fill the great ocean, and thus is the great ocean fed, thus is it filled. In the same way, when associating with truly good people is brought to fulfillment, it fulfills [the conditions for] hearing the true Dhamma... conviction... appropriate attention... mindfulness & alertness... restraint of the senses... the three forms of right conduct... the four frames of reference... the seven factors for Awakening. When the seven factors for Awakening are brought to fulfillment, they fulfill [the conditions for] clear knowing & release. Thus is clear knowing & release fed, thus is it brought to fulfillment.

-- AN X.61