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The Causes for Wisdom


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#21 Virgo

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 09:46 PM

 robertk » Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:31 am


danieLion wrote:RobertK,
This is a wonderful thread. Thank you.
Thanks, not sure everyone agrees. soapbox.gif 

More about 'daily practice'

In the Samyutta nikaya V (Sayings on stream entry p347 The great chapter Dhammadina ) 5oo rich merchants came to see the Buddha . They explained they were given over to the joys of wives and family and captivated by the five strands of sense pleasures. They asked how they should live their lives. The Buddha suggested that they train themselves thus:



"as to those discourses uttered by the Tathagatha, deep, deep in meaning, transcendental and concerned with the void (about anatta) from time to time we will spend our days learning them. That is how you must spend your days."

 

 


That would be pretty much be what I do from time to time....

Hope that is not being evasive?
Re: The causes for wisdom

icon_post_target.gifby tiltbillings » Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:16 pm

It is not being transparent. And then when you have learned the discourses, then what?
Re: The causes for wisdom

icon_post_target.gifby retrofuturist » Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:35 pm

Greetings,


tiltbillings wrote:It is not being transparent. And then when you have learned the discourses, then what?
Bring them to mind regularly and observe experience accordingly, perhaps?

Metta,
Retro. icon_e_smile.gif
  •  
Re: The causes for wisdom

icon_post_target.gifby tiltbillings » Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:16 pm

Perhaps, but what do you mean by "observe experience accordingly?" How do we know that won't be: "But what is thought to be mindfulness in common parlance is often some type of tedious focussing on an approximation of the here and now?"
.


#22 Virgo

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 09:49 PM

 robertk » Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:43 pm

I repeat my analogy of the seeing process 

Think of the seeing process. It occurs almost an infinite number of times just in one day. Yet every brief moment of seeing an object arises because of very complex conditions - no one can make it arise, but if the conditions are there it must arise. 
We take it for granted but it is at least as amazing that seeing should arise as that satipatthana should arise. From this perspective, then, can you really tell someone how to have satipatthana; it is like trying to explain to someone how to see. If they good eyes (conditioned by kamma and other conditions) then they must see; but if they are without eyes.....

So we don't send children to a special school to train them how to see or hear or taste or smell. If they have eyes and ears, tongue and nose they will experience color, sound etc. al they have to do to see is open their eyes.
But if they don't have eyes or if their eyes are damaged no amount of training , determination, effort and willpower will make seeing occur.

Likewise there are objects such as feeling, hardness, desire, aversion and all the other objects listed in the satipathhana sutta arising all the time . Whether one focuses or doesn't focus. Whether one sits under a tree, urinates, defecates, walks up and down, looks behind, looks in front the objects are appearing. But just as color is beyond the ken of a blind man , so the real nature of each object is hidden to the one without right view.

On the other hand if right view is firm then those same objects start to show their absolute nature, not because one wants them to. Not because wisdom wants to know but simply because the eye of wisdom is open and not impaired. 
Then one won't be thinking about some special practice that must be performed anymore than children train to see objects.
Re: The causes for wisdom

icon_post_target.gifby Virgo » Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:47 pm

Re: The causes for wisdom

icon_post_target.gifby Virgo » Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:48 pm


That is why the path is so narrow.

Kevin
Re: The causes for wisdom

icon_post_target.gifby tiltbillings » Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:58 pm

So one just has to have the right conceptual structure to see clearly.?
Re: The causes for wisdom

icon_post_target.gifby tiltbillings » Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:00 pm

Actually, if it were as simple as robertk's seems to present it, it would be very easy, indeed.
Re: The causes for wisdom

icon_post_target.gifby Virgo » Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:24 pm


tiltbillings wrote:Actually, if it were as simple as robertk's seems to present it, it would be very easy, indeed.
 
 
No. it's not easy, nor difficult, because it is not a thing we "do". It occurs, slowly. What occurs? With conceptual Right View, wisdom on the level of experience occurs when conditions are right as we move through the days, weeks, etc. This happens slowly. We cannot adjust those conditions because they arise on their own accord. After all, what we are seeing is anatta in action itself. Slowly, over many, many lifetimes, many of them, wisdom gets deeper and deeper. 

Kevin


#23 Virgo

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 09:51 PM

Virgo   Posts: 1061 Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:52 pm
is there a conventional self who decides?

icon_post_target.gifby tiltbillings » Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:42 pm

Did you write that sentence of your own accord?
Re: The causes for wisdom

icon_post_target.gifby Virgo » Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:25 pm


There is no 'I', Tilt, nor a 'you'. C'mon I thought you were a Buddhist. guns.gif tongue.gif 

There are arising dhammas, but not a self person.

24, 2013 6:41 pm
 


#24 Virgo

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 10:22 PM

Dan74 » Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:59 pm

I am not sure if it's just me or if this sounds like an old family dispute, obscure to all but the participants. So at the risk of being thick and obnoxious can I ask if this is related to the previous debate of sati as recollection vs sati as bare awareness? 

In other words there are people who favour recalling the teachings and using them as a tool to deal with mindstates and there are people who favour bringing full attention to the mind or engaging in a more immediate way?

Does wisdom arise from recollection of teachings or does it arise from...?
_/|\_

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Re: The causes for wisdom

icon_post_target.gifby gendun » Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:13 pm


Dan74
Speaking personally I am finding the debate both interesting and valuable. I hope it is not derailed.
Gendun P. Brownlow.
Karma Kagyu student.
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Re: The causes for wisdom

icon_post_target.gifby dhamma follower » Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:41 am

Greeting Tilt,


tiltbillings wrote:Of course, but the choice was his.

As it has been said, the choice doesn't belong to anyone, it is cetana perfoming its functions, but ignorance takes it for "mine" or "his".

Understanding that it is not "me", but only elements arising by conditions is what constitutes right view, an indispensable factor of the Path, isn't it?

Best wishes,
D.F
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#25 Virgo

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 10:25 PM

 icon_post_target.gifby SamKR » Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:48 am



robertk wrote: wake up, check email, brush teeth. Go to coffee shop, read local newscpaper while indulging in brewed coffee. Go to gym, 30 minutes on stepmill then a 1km swim. Go to office, have first meeting of day. Forget about second schefuled meeting, arrive 15 minutes late for that.
Discuss baby issue with wife on phone.
Finish work early, go to shopping center. Buy a shirt at La Martina. Sales girl asks where I am from and whether she can come to new zealand with me. Feel 10 years under my age after that comment. 
Have a coffe and tuna bun at Belly sandwich shop, outstanding service and taste. And so it goes...

 

 

Sam var : Suppose my "practice" yesterday was similar to yours as quoted above...and then:

sit on a cushion, start observing breath for half an hour, and then observe bodily sensations for another half an hour -- while contemplating the Buddha's teachings about anicca, dukkha, anatta; while observing arising and passing away; while observing reduction of raga-dosa-moha and increase in equanimity.
Would this last addition of mine be considered a part of daily practice for the sake of wisdom?
Re: The causes for wisdom

It is not that sitting and watching the breath or watching bodily sensations is going to help or hinder the path, anymore than me chosing the Belly Sandwich Shop in preference to Subway. But if one believes that it is these very operations that somehow are key to satisampajanna to arise then one is in the realm of silabataparamasa. 

And even the more subtle - and ostensibly correct - 'contemplating anicca , dukkha, anatta ' at leisure or whatever, is close to an idea of a self that can decide to have these type of contemplations. 
The comment about 'observing rising and passing away" . To truly see 'rising and falling' is not dependent on anything other that deepening wisdom that can discern this. After all in in truth the elements are rising and falling trillions of times in a second. 

Eveyone, even non-buddhist, see/know that things change, that at one moment there is seeing, one moment hearing, that there is a flux of everchanging feelings : but there is an idea of a self who is doing so, there is no real seeing of the actual separation of mind aand matter.


#26 Virgo

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 10:27 PM

 tiltbillings » Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:06 am

robertk wrote:It is not that sitting and watching the breath or watching bodily sensations is going to help or hinder the path, anymore than me chosing the Belly Sandwich Shop in preference to Subway. But if one believes that it is these very operations that somehow are key to satisampajanna to arise then one is in the realm of silabataparamasa.


sīlabbata-parāmāsa 
and -upādāna: 

'attachment (or clinging) to mere rules and ritual', is the 3rd of the 10 fetters (samyojana), and one of the 4 kinds of clinging (upādāna). 

It disappears on attaining to Stream-entry (sotāpatti). 

For definition, s. upādāna.

upādāna
'clinging', according to Vis.M. XVII, is an intensified degree of craving (tanhā). 

The 4 kinds of clinging are: 

sensuous clinging (kāmupādāna), 
clinging to views (ditthupādāna), 
clinging to mere rules and ritual (sīlabbatupādāna), 
clinging to the personality-belief (atta-vādupādāna). 
(1) "What now is the sensuous clinging? Whatever with regard to sensuous objects there exists of sensuous lust, sensuous desire, sensuous attachment, sensuous passion, sensuous deluded ness, sensuous fetters: this is called sensuous clinging.

(2) ''What is the clinging to views? 'Alms and offerings are useless; there is no fruit and result for good and bad deeds: all such view and wrong conceptions are called the clinging to views.

(3) "What is the clinging to mere rules and ritual? The holding firmly to the view that through mere rules and ritual one may reach purification: this is called the clinging to mere rules and ritual.

(4) "What is the clinging to the personality-belief? The 20 kinds of ego-views with regard to the groups of existence (s. sakkāya-ditthi): these are called the clinging to the personality-belief" (Dhs.1214-17).

This traditional fourfold division of clinging is not quite satisfactory. Besides kamupādāna we should expect either rūpupādāna and arūpupādāna, or simply bhavupādāna. Though the Anāgāmī is entirely free from the traditional 4 kinds of upādāna, he is not freed from rebirth, as he still possesses bhavupādāna. The Com. to Vis.M. XVII, in trying to get out of this dilemma, explains kāmupādāna as including here all the remaining kinds of clinging.

"Clinging' is the common rendering for u., though 'grasping' would come closer to the literal meaning of it, which is 'uptake'; s. Three Cardinal Discourses (WHEEL 17), p.19.

http://www.palikanon... ... amaasa.htm
http://www.palikanon...v/upaadaana.htm
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

tiltbillings   Posts: 17350 Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am Location: Turtle Island
Re: The causes for wisdom

icon_post_target.gifby tiltbillings » Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:21 am

A rather astounding statement here http://dhammawheel.c... ... 60#p228510 which probably renders most of what most people here are doing as being at best problematic. But there is this:
robertk wrote:To truly see 'rising and falling' is not dependent on anything other that deepening wisdom that can discern this.
I am guessing I would not be alone in asking you, since, according to you, what we usually think and understand as Dhamma practice is likely not of any real value, then how does one deepen wisdom?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.


#27 Virgo

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 10:27 PM

:)



#28 Virgo

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 10:30 PM

robertk » Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:47 am

tiltbillings wrote:A rather astounding statement here http://dhammawheel.c... ... 60#p228510 which probably renders most of what most people here are doing as being at best problematic. But there is this:
robertk wrote:To truly see 'rising and falling' is not dependent on anything other that deepening wisdom that can discern this.
I am guessing I would not be alone in asking you, since, accoirding to you, what we usually think and understand as Dhamma practice is likely not of any real value, then how does one deepen wisdom?

This thread has already given suttas such as the Ghosa sutta (thanks Dave)as reference.

In the Commentary to the Susima sutta by Buddhaghosa it says
Saratthappakasini (Atthakatha) :
Why is this said? For the purpose
of showing the arising of
knowledge thus even without concentration.
This is meant: "Susima, the path and fruit are not the issue of
concentration (samadhinissanda), nor the advantage brought about by
concentration (samadhi-anisamsa), nor the outcome of concentration
(samadhinipphatti). They are the issue of insight (vipassana), the
advantage brought about by insight, the outcome of insight.
Therefore, whether you understand or not, first comes knowledge of
the stability of the Dhamma, afterwards knowledge of Nibbana.
Spk-pt (tika): 'Even without concentration' (vina pi samadhim): even
without
previously established (concentration) that has acquired the
characteristic of serenity (samatha-lakkhanappattam); this is said
referring to one who takes the vehicle of insight
(vipassanayanika)..."


Vipassana(insight) itself is one of the synonyms of panna wisdom- it is advanced wisdom.
I mentioned in a prior post about a virtous circle I think which would be worth looking at again.
as the suttas say "

Bhikkhus, just as the dawn is the forerunner and first indication of the rising of the sun, so is right view the forerunner and first indication of wholesome states. For one of right view, bhikkhus, right intention springs up. For one of right intention, right speech springs up. For one of right speech, right action springs up. For one of right action, right livelihood springs up. For one of right livelihood, right effort springs up. For one of right effort, right mindfulness springs up. For one of right mindfulness, right concentration springs up. For one of right concentration, right knowledge springs up. For one of right knowledge, right deliverance springs up
. Anguttara Nikaya 10:121"

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Re: The causes for wisdom

icon_post_target.gifby robertk » Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:49 am

Sammohavinodanii (Dispeller of Delusion) by Buddhaghosa, pp.138-9, 




"In the description of Right View, by dukkhe ~naa.na.m ('knowledge concerning suffering) and so on are pointed out the four truths as meditation subject. Herein, the first two are process [of existence], the last two standstill. Among these the bhikkhu's laying to heart (abhiniveso) of the meditation subject is in the process, there is no laying to heart in the standstill. For the meditator works on his meditation subject by learning in from a teacher in brief thus: 'Which are the five aggregates?' and he goes over it verbally again and again. But as regards the other two truths, he does his work by hearing: 'the Truth of Cessation is agreeable, desirable, pleasing, the Truth of the Path is agreeable, desirable, pleasing.' Doing his work thus, he penetrates the four truths with a single penetration. He achieves them with a single achievement. He penetrates suffering with the penetration of full understanding, origination with the penetration of abandoning, cessation with the achievement of realisation and the path with the achievement of development. Thus for him there comes to be in the prior stage penetration by learning, questioning, hearing, remembering and comprehending in regard to two truths; and penetration; and penetration by hearing only in regard to two.



Herein, two truths are profound because of being difficult to see, and two are difficult to see on account of being profound. For the Truth of Suffering is evident once it arises because one has to say: 'Ah, the pain!' in respect of encounters with stumps and thorns, etc.; and origination is evident once it arises as desire to chew, desire to eat, and so on. But as to the penetration of their characteristics, both are profound; accordingly these are profound because of being difficult to see. But the work for seeing the other two is like extending the hand for the purpose of seizing the summit of existence, like extending the foot for the purpose of seizing [the hell called] Avicii, like the placing (pa.tipaadana.m) end to end of a hair split a hundred times. Accordingly these are difficult to see because of being profound. Thus this passage 'knowledge concerning suffering', etc. is stated with reference to the arising of knowledge in the prior stage by learning etc. in regard to the four truths which are profound because they are difficult to see and difficult to see because they are profound. But at the moment of penetration the knowledge is only one."

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Re: The causes for wisdom

icon_post_target.gifby tiltbillings » Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:53 am

robertk wrote:. . .
Thank you. I do not, however, see anything in either Buddhaghosa or the Buddha quotes of both msgs that would support your position that you outline in this msg:http://www.dhammawhe... ... 60#p228510

Also, your postings do not really answer my question -- that I can see -- about the arising of wisdom.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

tiltbillings   Posts: 17350 Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am Location: Turtle IslanTop


#29 Virgo

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 10:34 PM

 robertk » Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:15 am

your question was "how does one deepen wisdom?"
daverupa gave us this sutta on the first page of this thread:
You might be thinking of the Ghosa Sutta:
"
Monks, there are these two conditions for the arising of right view. Which two? The voice of another and appropriate attention. These are the two conditions for the arising of right view."

right view is a synonym for wisdom.
in the citation from the samohavinodani above it says:
Thus for him there comes to be in the prior stage penetration by learning, questioning, hearing, remembering and comprehending in regard to two truths;

robertk   Posts: 893 Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am
Re: The causes for wisdom

icon_post_target.gifby robertk » Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:22 am

a bit more regarding how to deepen wisdom:
When, Bhikkhus, a Noble Disciple listens carefully to the Dhamma,
alert with keen ears,
attending to it as a matter of crucial concern, as something of vital
importance, directing
his entire mind to it, in that very moment the Five Mental Hindrances
are absent in him.
On that occasion the Seven Links to Awakening develop towards
complete fulfilment...>

Source (edited extract):
The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya.
Book [V: 95-6] section 46: The Links. 38: Unhindered


and

M II, no 95, Cankiisutta.


<http://www.metta.lk/...ajjhima-Nikaya/
Majjhima2/095-canki-e1.html >

'Good Gotama, now, I know the realising of the truth. How is this attained? Good Gotama, teach me that attainment and realization.'

'Bharadvàja, practising, developing and making much of those same things lead to the realization of the truth. I declare that the realization of the truth is this much.'

'Good Gotama, now I know the realising of the truth. What things are of much help for realising the truth?'

'Bharadvàja, the fourfold endeavour is of much help for the realisation of the truth. If not for the fourfold endeavour, the realisation of the truth is not. Therefore the fourfold endeavour is of much help for the realisation of the truth.'

'Good Gotama, for the fourfold endeavour, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, weighing [1] is of much help for the fourfold endeavour. Without the weighing there is no fourfold effort, therefore weighing is of much help for the fourfold endeavour.'

'Good Gotama, for weighing, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, struggling [2] is of much help for weighing. Without that struggle there is no weighing, therefore that struggle is of much help for weighing'

'Good Gotama, for struggling, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, interest, is of much help for struggling. Without that interest, there is no struggle, therefore that interest is of much help for struggling.'

'Good Gotama, for interest, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, rightful speculation [3] is of much help for interest. Without the rightful speculating mind, there is no interest, therefore the rightful speculative mind is of much help for interest.'

'Good Gotama, for a rightful speculative mind, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, examining the meanings in the Teaching, is of much help for a rightful speculative mind. Without that examining of meanings in the Teaching, there is norightful speculation, therefore examining
meanings in the Teaching is of much help for a speculative mind.'

'Good Gotama, for examining meanings in the Teaching, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, bearing the Teaching in the mind, is of much help for examining meanings in the Teaching. Without bearing the Teaching in mind, there is no examination of meanings, therefore bearing the Teaching in mind is of much help for examining meanings in the Teaching.'

'Good Gotama, for bearing the Teaching in the mind, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, listening to the Teaching, is of much help for bearing the Teaching in the mind. Without listening to the Teaching, there is no bearing of the Teaching, therefore listening to the Teaching, is of much help for bearing the Teaching in the mind.'

'Good Gotama, for listening to the Teaching, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, lending ear, is of much help for listening to the Teaching. Without lending ear there is no listening to the Teaching, therefore, lending ear, is of much help for listening to the Teaching.'

'Good Gotama, for lending ear, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, associating, is of much help for lending ear. Without association there is no lending ears, therefore associating is of much help for lending ear.'

'Good Gotama, for associating, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, approaching, is of much help for associating Without an approach there is no association, therefore approaching is of much help for associating.'

'Good Gotama, for approaching, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, faith, is of much help for approaching Without faith there is no approaching, therefore faith is of much help for approaching.'...

[1] Weighing is of much help for the fourfold endeavour (padhànassa kho bharadvàja tulanà bahukàrà). The fourfold endeavours are pushing the mind forward earnestly, to dispel arisen demerit to promote non arising of not arisen demerit To promote the arising of not arisen merit and to see the development and completion of arisen merit. For this kind of mental work to happen, we should mentally weigh our activities by body speech and mind. We should be aware of the activities at the six doors of mental contact.

[2] Struggling is of much help for weighing (tulanàya kho bharadvàja ussàho bahukàro hoti). This is a mental struggle. It consists of thinking and pondering to sort out the correct and comes to be right thinking.

[3] Right speculation is of much help for interest (chandassa kho Bharadvàja dhammanijjhànakhanti bahukàrà). Right speculation falls to the category of right thinking. So this is falling to the Noble Eightfold path, with right view at the foremost.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

icon_post_target.gifby tiltbillings » Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:32 am

robertk wrote:your question was "how does one deepen wisdom?"
daverupa gave us this sutta on the first page of this thread:
You might be thinking of the Ghosa Sutta:
"
Monks, there are these two conditions for the arising of right view. Which two? The voice of another and appropriate attention. These are the two conditions for the arising of right view."

right view is a synonym for wisdom.
in the citation from the samohavinodani above it says:
Thus for him there comes to be in the prior stage penetration by learning, questioning, hearing, remembering and comprehending in regard to two truths;
Yes; however, all this can be easily interpreted differently than you are suggesting. In other words I do not see anything that is unquestionably definitive in supporting your position. I shrug my shoulders. I shall step back and let others see what they can in all this.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
tiltbillings   Posts: 17350 Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am Location: Turtle Island
Re: The causes for wisdom

icon_post_target.gifby robertk » Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:26 am

The Atthasalini, (triplets p451)defines "ignorant average man" as:
QUOTE

Expositor 

"For to whoever owing to the absense of learning by heart and deduction therefrom regarding the khandas(aggregates) elements(dhatus) sense-organs(ayatanas) the causal mode, the applications of mindfulness etc there is NO attainment of that learning which represses opinionativeness, nor any access, owing to the non-attainment of what should be attained by conduct. Such a person, from the absense of such access and such attainment should be known as ignorant" 


#30 Virgo

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 10:37 PM

The commentary to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, the
Abhidhammattha
Vibhavani explains why the Buddha taught so extensively in many different ways.

"
There are people who like short explanations, there
are people who
like explanations of medium length, and there are
people who like
detailed explanations. Those among the different
groups who are slow in
understanding as regards mentality can understand
realities as
explained by way of five khandhas, because mentality
is classified by
way of four khandhas, thus, in a more extensive way.
Those who are slow
in understanding as regards physical phenomena (rupa)
can understand
realities as explained by way of åyatanas. The five
senses and the
five sense objects are ten kinds of rúpa which are
åyatanas. As to
dhammåyatana this comprises both nåma and rúpa. Thus
in this
classification rúpa has been explained more
extensively. Those who are
slow in understanding as to both nåma and rúpa can
understand realities
as explained by way of elements, dhåtus, because in
this
classification both nåma and rúpa have been explained
in detail."


We see the differences in beings also explained in the suttas>

Anguttara nikaya, Book of 4s, X1V, iii(133) Quick-Witted (PTS)

"Monks, these four persons are found existing in the world. What four?

He who learns by taking hints [uggha.tita~n~nu= (brief-learner)= sankhepa~n~nu]: he who learns by full details [vipa~ncit~n~nu (diffuse-learner)= vitthaarita~n~nu]: he who has to be led on (by instruction)[neyyo=netabba]: he who has just the word (of the text) at most [padaparamo=vya~njana- padam eva parama.n assa, one who learns by heart, is word-perfect but without understanding it]. These are the four."


At this time (acording to the texts) there are only padaparama and neyya. The extremely wise types with high accumulations of parami called Ugghatitannu and Vipancitannu are now extinct. Padaparama cannot attain in this life, although they can in future lives.. We, at this time, - so the Theravada commentaries say- are either padaparama or neyya and we need many details so we have to study and consider a great deal as a condition for understanding. From Ledi sayadaw
http://web.ukonline....sm/individu.htm

QUOTE
Ledi sayadaw.""(1) A Ugghatitannu : an individual whoキ encounters a Buddha in person, and who is capable of attaining the Holy Paths and the Holy Fruits through the mere hearing of a short concise discourse.

(2) A Vipancitannu: an individual who キ encounters a Buddha in person, but キ who is capable of attaining the Paths and the Fruits only when the short discourse is expounded to him at some length.

At the present day, only the following Neyya and Padaparama classes of individuals remain.

(3) A Neyya : an individual who needs キ to study the sermon and the exposition, and then キ to practise the provisions contained therein for 7 days to 60 years, to attain the Paths and the Fruits during this lifetime if he tries hard with guidance from the right teacher.

(4) A Padaparama : is an individual who cannot attain the Paths and the Fruits within this lifetime can attain release from worldly ills in his next existence if he dies while practising samatha or vipassana and attains rebirth either as a human being or a deva within the present Buddha Sasana. "" --
Robert

robertk   Posts: 893 Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am
Re: The causes for wisdom

icon_post_target.gifby tiltbillings » Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:35 am

robertk wrote:. . .
All of this and the other msgs where you are quoting commentaries at some length are supposed to support this: http://dhammawheel.c... ... 60#p228510 ? If so, it is less than clear how so.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

tiltbillings   Posts: 17350 Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am Location: Turtle Island
Re: The causes for wisdom

icon_post_target.gifby robertk » Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:37 am

In case anyone thinks i mean that simply reading the texts is right practice I should add that pARIYATTi is hearing and considering Dhamma with wise attention. And this leads to pattipati which is the gradual approaching of understanding realties directly.

The right intellectual understanding, if firm enough, sets the foundation for the gradual confirmation in daily life of what has been learnt .
So right now there is seeing, color, sound, feelings...they are inescapable yet for the ignorant they are passed over without any insight While for the one who is beginning to learn directly they are a new world of treasure

robertk   Posts: 893 Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am
Re: The causes for wisdom

icon_post_target.gifby robertk » Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:39 am

tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:. . .
All of this and the other msgs where you are quoting commentaries at some length are supposed to support this: viewtopic.php?f=19&t=15952&start=60#p228510 ? If so, it is less than clear how so.

I am giving some quotes to show the crucial role of learning in the development of wisdom, and how the path is about such development.


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Posted 15 September 2013 - 05:29 PM

tiltbillings » Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:02 am

robertk wrote:In case anyone thinks i mean that simply reading the texts is right practice I should add that pARIYATTi is hearing and considering Dhamma with wise attention. And this leads to pattipati which is the gradual approaching of understanding realties directly.

The right intellectual understanding, if firm enough, sets the foundation for the gradual confirmation of what has been learnt in 'real' life.
So right now there is seeing, color, sound, feelings...they are inescapable yet for the ignorant they are passed over without any insight While for the one who is beginning to learn directly they are a new world of treasure

Nothing at all wrong with right intellectual practice as part of one's practice, But meditation practice, with the idea that it would be a direct help to cultivate wisdom you have blatantly dismissed as at attachment to rules and rituals, which is an extremely dramatic departure from how, it would seem, most people here view such practice of Dhamma. If I am not understanding you, please clarify your stance and correct my misunderstranding.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

 

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by tiltbillings » Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:06 am

robertk wrote:

tiltbillings wrote:

robertk wrote:. . .

All of this and the other msgs where you are quoting commentaries at some length are supposed to support this: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 60#p228510 ? If so, it is less than clear how so.

I am giving some quotes to show the crucial role of learning in the development of wisdom, and how the path is about such development.

Okay, but I wonder if they, in their fuller contexts, would support this statement of yours: "It is not that sitting and watching the breath or watching bodily sensations is going to help or hinder the path, anymore than me chosing the Belly Sandwich Shop in preference to Subway. But if one believes that it is these very operations that somehow are key to satisampajanna to arise then one is in the realm of silabataparamasa." I don't think the suttas do.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

 

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by robertk » Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:42 am

Dear tilt
For practically anyone who is involved in a 'spiritual' path silabataparamasa is almost certain to appear from the very very gross down to very subtle (albeit still virulent).
An example of extreme silabataparamasa: last week I was taking a taxi to the airport in Kathmandu. We were outside the city on some jungle path (seriously) when the driver stops. After a minute I asked what the holdup was.
" did you see the cat sir"
Yes?
"We have to wait until another car comes"
Umm why?
"Very dangerous for you sir, you are going on a long trip"
WTF?
He wouldn't move so we waited 5 minutes or more until a motorbike came along...

But what is amazing is how utterly sure he was of this existential danger and its cure.
We Buddhists think such rituals are ridiculously silly, but still we are not immune to more subtle types.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by tiltbillings » Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:58 am

robertk wrote:Dear tilt
For practically anyone who is involved in a 'spiritual' path silabataparamasa is almost certain to appear from the very very gross down to very subtle (albeit still virulent).

You just got done equating sitting meditation of having no more significance in one's "spiritual" practice than choosing which sandwich shop to go to. The issue is not the ritual itself. It is our attitude towards it, our expectation of it, that is the problem with ritual, but let us look at your statement:

 

It is not that sitting and watching the breath or watching bodily sensations is going to help or hinder the path, anymore than me chosing the Belly Sandwich Shop in preference to Subway. But if one believes that it is these very operations that somehow are key to satisampajanna to arise then one is in the realm of silabataparamasa.


It is hard not to read this as a flat, straight forward dismissal of sitting practice itself. Maybe you were really tired when you wrote this and you really do not mean to dismiss meditation practice as a direct way of cultivating the factors giving rise to wisdom/insight. You tell me what you mean here, if you mean something other than how this quote seems to plainly read.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

 

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 05:42 PM

robertk » Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:04 am

in the visuddhimagga CHAPTER XVII The Soil of Understanding (conclusion):267. Another [thinks] through rules-and-vows(silabataparamasa) clinging, “

This rite and ritual
leads him who perfects it to perfect bliss in becoming in the fortunate states of
the sense sphere or in the fine-material or immaterial kinds of becoming,” and
he performs kamma to achieve that. That kamma of his is kamma-process
becoming. The aggregates generated by the kamma are rebirth-process becoming.
But the percipient, etc., kinds of becoming are included in that, too. So rules-andvows
clinging is a condition for all three, namely, the sense-desire, fine-material
and immaterial kinds of becoming with their analysis and their synthesis.


so this is how incredibly subtle silabataparamasa can be . It can at times even lead to kusala actions.

What more to say of any special practice we think is needed to make vipassana arise. So certainly an idea that by sitting (or standing or walking or talking) or focussing on this or focussing on that , that these actions are neccessary conditions for insight to arise is an aspect of wrong view and silabataparamasa.
Like now, can insight arise while typing on a computer- Yes provided there is enough right understanding. But if one then tries to make it happen, or thinks they should focus on the fingers or the feelings or whatever their object of choice is then that shows a lack of understanding of how incredibly anatta and uncontrollable is each moment. 

There is not the patience (khanti) to let satisampajanna arise naturally, as it must if the conditions are there. If one tries in this way it shows one still has some doubts or even disbelieves the texts about anatta. The theory and the practice conform completely: not "oh I still have self, I will do my practice and after I become sotapanna there will be no self" . It will never happen

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by tiltbillings » Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:45 am

robertk wrote:
What more to say of any special practice we think is needed to make vipassana arise. So certainly an idea that by sitting (or standing or walking or talking) or focussing on this or focussing on that , that these actions are neccessary conditions for insight to arise is an aspect of wrong view and silabataparamasa.

If this is how you understand meditation practice, then I think you might have a rather deficient understanding. Of all the teachers I have had and heard, not one of them would characterize meditation in the way you just did.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

 

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by danieLion » Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:16 am

Still enjoying this thread. It's very educational. Thanks again to you both.

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 05:52 PM

 Spiny Norman » Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:32 am

robertk wrote:It is not that sitting and watching the breath or watching bodily sensations is going to help or hinder the path, anymore than me chosing the Belly Sandwich Shop in preference to Subway. But if one believes that it is these very operations that somehow are key to satisampajanna to arise then one is in the realm of silabataparamasa. 


But these are the practices described in the Satipatthana and Anapanasati Suttas. Are you advocating that we ignore these and do some other practice? And if so, what practice exactly? 

 

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by robertk » Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:00 am

Dear porpoise
 

in the satipatthana sutta it says "Mindful, he breathes in, and mindful, he breathes out. He, thinking, 'I breathe in long,' he understands when he is breathing in long; or thinking, 'I breathe out long,' he understands when he is breathing out long; or thinking, 'I breathe in short,' he understands when he is breathing in short; or thinking, 'I breathe out short,' he understands when he is breathing out short.

"
and

 

bhikkhus, when he is going, a bhikkhu understands: 'I am going'; when he is standing, he understands: 'I am standing'; when he is sitting, he understands: 'I am sitting'; when he is lying down, he understands: 'I am lying down'; or just as his body is disposed so he understands it.

and
 

further, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, in going forwards (and) in going backwards, is a person practising clear comprehension; in looking straight on (and) in looking away from the front, is a person practising clear comprehension; in bending and in stretching, is a person practising clear comprehension; in wearing the shoulder-cloak, the (other two) robes (and) the bowl, is a person practising clear comprehension; in regard to what is eaten, drunk, chewed and savoured, is a person practising clear comprehension;

and
 

in defecating and in urinating, is a person practising clear comprehension; in walking, in standing (in a place), in sitting (in some position), in sleeping, in waking, in speaking and in keeping silence, is a person practising clear comprehension.

and

 

bhikkhus, a bhikkhu when experiencing a pleasant feeling, understands: 'I experience a pleasant feeling'; when experiencing a painful feeling, he understands: 'I experience a painful feeling'; when experiencing a neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling, he understands: 'I experience a neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling'


and
bhikkhus, a

bhikkhu understands the consciousness with lust, as with lust; the consciousness without lust, as without lust; the consciousness with hate, as with hate;


so the sutta covers almost any situation. it simply shows that the objects for satipatthana are always arising and passing away. The only question is whether there is genuine awareness of them.
Take the taxi driver in Nepal. I told him and my friend that this waiting after we passed a cat was a silly superstition. they were offended and told me the importance of religion blah, blah blah. 

Do you think if they had realized that it was merely a ritual that they would be better off? Yes they would. It doesn't mean that they would feel different: no "OMG I see ", no sudden uplift in their life. But they would be that litttle bit closer to coming out of their deep attachment to silabataparamasa: and that is valuable. 

Most 'spiritual ' people can be the same. Tell them they have to sit under a freezing waterfall for 2 hours a day saying OM. and they reply,"Is that all! Book my ticket to Alaska, I will sit for 6 hours a day!"

But tell them it is harder than that: "you have to give up attachment to rules and rituals" and "you have to give up the belief in self" and that is something they can't accept. So they haggle: "well I will give up the self view after I get enlightened ( provided I can still take the credit for getting to nibbana)" 

http://www.abhidhamma.org/

 

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by Mr Man » Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:05 am

What we would call formal practice can also have value in it's own right. I would certainly agree that what is being put forward as "vipasana" is really just an exercise in concentration and that there has now been incredible investment in this idea, and in this path, and it has now become an industry and an occupation, an identity, but that does not, in my opinion, remove the value of formal practice completely. The benifit of formal practice is here and now. To live without silabataparamasa is actually not an option.

 

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 05:53 PM

 

 

Dan74 » Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:22 am

robertk wrote:Dear porpoise
 

in the satipatthana sutta it says "Mindful, he breathes in, and mindful, he breathes out. He, thinking, 'I breathe in long,' he understands when he is breathing in long; or thinking, 'I breathe out long,' he understands when he is breathing out long; or thinking, 'I breathe in short,' he understands when he is breathing in short; or thinking, 'I breathe out short,' he understands when he is breathing out short.

"
and

 

bhikkhus, when he is going, a bhikkhu understands: 'I am going'; when he is standing, he understands: 'I am standing'; when he is sitting, he understands: 'I am sitting'; when he is lying down, he understands: 'I am lying down'; or just as his body is disposed so he understands it.

and
 

further, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, in going forwards (and) in going backwards, is a person practising clear comprehension; in looking straight on (and) in looking away from the front, is a person practising clear comprehension; in bending and in stretching, is a person practising clear comprehension; in wearing the shoulder-cloak, the (other two) robes (and) the bowl, is a person practising clear comprehension; in regard to what is eaten, drunk, chewed and savoured, is a person practising clear comprehension;

and
 

in defecating and in urinating, is a person practising clear comprehension; in walking, in standing (in a place), in sitting (in some position), in sleeping, in waking, in speaking and in keeping silence, is a person practising clear comprehension.

and

 

bhikkhus, a bhikkhu when experiencing a pleasant feeling, understands: 'I experience a pleasant feeling'; when experiencing a painful feeling, he understands: 'I experience a painful feeling'; when experiencing a neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling, he understands: 'I experience a neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling'


and
bhikkhus, a

bhikkhu understands the consciousness with lust, as with lust; the consciousness without lust, as without lust; the consciousness with hate, as with hate;


so the sutta covers almost any situation. it simply shows that the objects for satipatthana are always arising and passing away. The only question is whether there is genuine awareness of them.
Take the taxi driver in Nepal. I told him and my friend that this waiting after we passed a cat was a silly superstition. they were offended and told me the importance of religion blah, blah blah. 

Do you think if they had listened to me and realized that it was merely a ritual they were so attached to that they would be better off? Yes they would. It doesn't mean that they would feel different: no "OMG I see ", no sudden uplift in their life. But they would be that litttle bit closer to coming out of their deep attachment to silabataparamasa: and that is valuable. 

Most 'spiritual ' people can be the same. Tell them they have to sit under a freezing waterfall for 2 hours a day saying OM. and they reply,"Is that all! Book my ticket to Alaska, I will sit for 6 hours a day!"

But tell them it is harder than that: "you have to give up attachment to rules and rituals" and "you have to give up the belief in self" and that is something they can't accept. So they haggle: "well I will give up the self view after I get enlightened ( provided I can still take the credit for getting to nibbana)" 



This is all well and good, but a ritualized practice may actually help one give up attachment to rules and rituals and the belief in self, don't you think?

The value of ritualised practice is perhaps as a container. There is the discipline, the time when all else stops and the energy is dedicated solely to practice. There is potentially an incredible amount of freedom and possibility in this format because we don't need to assume the outcome or even how the next moment is going to be. I think meditation creates a very fertile ground for insight and it is not until some serious practice maturity that everyday life can compare. Even then meditation does not become obsolete.

_/|\_

 

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by Spiny Norman » Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:41 am

robertk wrote:Dear porpoise
 

in the satipatthana sutta it says "Mindful, he breathes in, and mindful, he breathes out. .......further, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, in going forwards (and) in going backwards, is a person practising clear comprehension; in looking straight on (and) in looking away from the front, is a person practising clear comprehension; in bending and in stretching, is a person practising clear comprehension;


so the sutta covers almost any situation. it simply shows that the objects for satipatthana are always arising and passing away. The only question is whether there is genuine awareness of them.


I agree, and clearly the approach described in the Satipatthana Sutta is applicable both on and off the cushion. But isn't the point that in order to develop genuine awareness we need to practicebeing aware? Isn't that the point of the Satipatthana Sutta, seeing how things really are by observing them?

I still don't see how this approach to practice is ritualist - though I can see it's possible to become attached to a particular method.

 

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by Spiny Norman » Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:44 am

Mr Man wrote:I would certainly agree that what is being put forward as "vipasana" is really just an exercise in concentration...


Could you give some examples?

 

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 05:56 PM

dhamma follower » Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:24 am

Dear Mr Man,

 

but a ritualized practice may actually help one give up attachment to rules and rituals and the belief in self, don't you think?


By simple logic, if ones thinks that ritualized practice is the way, one will not give up attachment to rules and rituals.
One gives up only when one realizes than it is the wrong way.

Similarly, if one believes that there is a self who can condition dhammas as wished, which is the underlying idea of "formal practice" how can there be detachment from an idea of self?

Best wishes,

D.F

 

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by perkele » Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:31 am

So, in short:

Formal, "ritualized" meditation practice is useless.

People who, say, routinely sit 30 minutes every morning, practicing anapanasati in that posture, or whichever type of formal practice, should give that up. It just fosters clinging.

Anyone agree?

Whatever there is of value and merit, helpful in some way in any of my contributions here,
may it be dedicated to my parents, that they may find peace and happiness.
And may it be dedicated to the Sangha of the noble ones, worthy of gifts, worthy of support, for its long-term further existence and the welfare of all beings.

And may anything wrong I have done here be correctly seen as wrong, and helpfully pointed out when possible.

 

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by David N. Snyder » Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:03 pm

There are Dhamma-experts who praise only monks who are also Dhamma-experts but not
those who are meditators. And there are meditators who praise only those monks who are also
meditators but not those who are Dhamma-experts. Thereby neither of them will be pleased, and
they will not be practicing for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, for the good of the
multitude, for the welfare and happiness of devas and humans. 

Anguttara Nikaya 4.46


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Re: The causes for wisdom

by Mr Man » Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:20 pm

porpoise wrote:

Mr Man wrote:I would certainly agree that what is being put forward as "vipasana" is really just an exercise in concentration...


Could you give some examples?


Hi porpoise, I don't want to take the thread of topic here and I know my view is not shared by many, but for example the sweeping technique.

 

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by Mr Man » Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:24 pm

dhamma follower wrote:Dear Mr Man,

 

but a ritualized practice may actually help one give up attachment to rules and rituals and the belief in self, don't you think?


By simple logic, if ones thinks that ritualized practice is the way, one will not give up attachment to rules and rituals.
One gives up only when one realizes than it is the wrong way.

Similarly, if one believes that there is a self who can condition dhammas as wished, which is the underlying idea of "formal practice" how can there be detachment from an idea of self?

Best wishes,

D.F


Hi dhamma follower
Did you mean to address this to me?

 

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 05:57 PM

 Coyote » Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:21 pm

Robertk ect.,

Do you think it would be silabbata paramasa for a Bhikkhu to devote time to formal meditation? How about for a lay person to meditate, but not "vipassana", say - Brahmavihara meditation or recollection of the Triple Gem? How about bowing or attending puja, chanting? Where is the line between formal and non formal practice anyway?
I ask this to get a clear understanding of your opinion.

Anyway, couldn't one argue that formal sitting practice helps build concentration thus making "mindfulness" (in conventional terms) clearer?

"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared." 
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Re: The causes for wisdom

by dhamma follower » Sat Jan 26, 2013 6:14 pm

Mr Man wrote:

dhamma follower wrote:Dear Mr Man,

 

but a ritualized practice may actually help one give up attachment to rules and rituals and the belief in self, don't you think?


By simple logic, if ones thinks that ritualized practice is the way, one will not give up attachment to rules and rituals.
One gives up only when one realizes than it is the wrong way.

Similarly, if one believes that there is a self who can condition dhammas as wished, which is the underlying idea of "formal practice" how can there be detachment from an idea of self?

Best wishes,

D.F


Hi dhamma follower
Did you mean to address this to me?


My appology! I meant to address Dan74 !  

D.F

 

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by dhamma follower » Sat Jan 26, 2013 6:18 pm

Greeting David,

 

David N. Snyder wrote:There are Dhamma-experts who praise only monks who are also Dhamma-experts but not
those who are meditators. And there are meditators who praise only those monks who are also
meditators but not those who are Dhamma-experts. Thereby neither of them will be pleased, and
they will not be practicing for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, for the good of the
multitude, for the welfare and happiness of devas and humans. 

Anguttara Nikaya 4.46


Can you tell us what are the pali words for "meditators" and "Dhamma-experts" in the sutta provided? Tks

Brgrds,

D.F

 

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by tiltbillings » Sat Jan 26, 2013 6:22 pm

Coyote wrote:Robertk ect.,

Do you think it would be silabbata paramasa for a Bhikkhu to devote time to formal meditation? How about for a lay person to meditate, but not "vipassana", say - Brahmavihara meditation or recollection of the Triple Gem? How about bowing or attending puja, chanting? Where is the line between formal and non formal practice anyway?
I ask this to get a clear understanding of your opinion.

Anyway, couldn't one argue that formal sitting practice helps build concentration thus making "mindfulness" (in conventional terms) clearer?

The criticism of formal sitting practice that is stated here viewtopic.php?f=16&t=15952&start=60#p228510" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; is overly rigid, and it lacks a maturity and insight into actual meditation practice. The reality is, or course, that as we start our practice that we will likely not reflect the Dhamma at its highest levels, but this is to be expected. We can only start from where we actually are. However, as we put the teachings into practice, open to what arises as a result of the practice, fortunately things can change as we gain insight into, and maturity in, the Dhamma, as we learn not to hang onto expectations and results. The magical, ritualistic thinking drops away and our motivation changes, and this is the result of the Eightfold Path in action.

Clearly, as the suttas show, the Buddha taught the importance of formal meditation practice as having an important, if not central, place in the overall practice of the Dhamma.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

 

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by Coyote » Sat Jan 26, 2013 6:32 pm

Tiltbillings, thanks for the reply, and I agree.
However, I specifically wanted to know Robertk's opinion on those questions as I don't think thus far in the thread the limits/boundaries of the "anti-formal practice" view have been clearly stated.

"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared." 
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Posted 15 September 2013 - 05:59 PM

 tiltbillings » Sat Jan 26, 2013 6:43 pmpectively. It is


Hope it helps,

D.F

 tiltbillings » Sat Jan 26, 2013 6:43 pm

Coyote wrote:Tiltbillings, thanks for the reply, and I agree.
However, I specifically wanted to know Robertk's opinion on those questions as I don't think thus far in the thread the limits/boundaries of the "anti-formal practice" view have been clearly stated.

You might want to do a search for Sujin and read through the various threads that pop-up. Robertk is advocating a very particular point of view, which should be fine, except that the Sujin point of view, in the hands of her followers, can be highly critical and dismissive of other points of view. The issue here for me is not that the Sujin teachings are or are not efficacious; rather, the concern I have is about the uncompromising criticism of formal meditation practice (of whatever style) as not being efficacious.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

 

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by Mr Man » Sat Jan 26, 2013 6:53 pm

tiltbillings wrote:the concern I have is about the uncompromising criticism of formal meditation practice (of whatever style) as not being efficacious.

Hi Tilt
If that was the case why does it cause such concern? Do you think that the very systamatic approaches to meditataion are efficacious, in terms of a higher goal? If this is your view, what do you base this on?

 

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by Coyote » Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:01 pm

Tiltbillings,

I have heard of and searched for threads related to Sujin's ideas since I came upon her viewpoint from these recent threads - I have read some her of writings and they are interesting, a fresh point of view. But I have not seen anything on whether her followers would agree with Bhikkhu's meditating or the other practices mentioned in my post as promoting Silabbataparamsa.

"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared." 
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Re: The causes for wisdom

by dhamma follower » Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:05 pm

Greeting Coyote,

 

Coyote wrote:Robertk ect.,

Do you think it would be silabbata paramasa for a Bhikkhu to devote time to formal meditation? How about for a lay person to meditate, but not "vipassana", say - Brahmavihara meditation or recollection of the Triple Gem? How about bowing or attending puja, chanting? Where is the line between formal and non formal practice anyway?
I ask this to get a clear understanding of your opinion.


We should clarify between a "situation" (bowing, doing formal "sitting") and the actual cittas that arise in that whole process. I think it is pretty clear that many kind of cittas can arise in a given situation, say dana: there can be kusala citta rooted in alobha (non-clinging) succeded by akusala citta with conceit (mana), feeling proud for having done a wholesome deed).

So if we stick to ultimate realities to really understand life, we should bear this distinction in mind, and examine the nature of samatha and vipassana bhavana in terms of cittas and cetasikas instead of situations. Actually this can provide ground for a separate thread. However, we can briefly discuss what is the heart of samatha and vipassana bhavana here:

- samatha bhavana is the cultivation of kusala which is not dana, not sila. The ground for this bhavana is seeing the danger of attachment to sensuous objects. It is precisely panna which perform this function, panna of the degree of seeing the danger of attachment to sensuos objects, not the panna which sees realities of they are. This kind of panna knows the conditions for calmness to arise. It is then by virtue of this kind of panna that calmness which is kusala is developed, not because of wanting to have calm, or because of trying to sit hours after hours with ignorance. 

- vipassana bhavana is the cultivation of understanding of realities as they are. This kind of panna is only available during a Buddha sasana. Without the words of the Buddha, no one would know about realities, and that they are not-self. The four conditions for the arising of sotapati magga (attaining the Path for the first time) are:
1. association with the wise
2. listening to the right Dhamma
3. Right consideration - yoniso manasikara
4. Direct awareness of the dhammas which appear naturally.

Apart from the moments of understanding, from intellectual level to direct level, there's no vipassana bhavana. It is the same with the example of dana above. There are countless moments of different nature: kusala and kusala, with or without understanding following each other, which clearly makes bhavana not a matter of doing, but a matter of understanding.

Therefore, if someone believes that it is the "doing" which constitutes bhavana instead of the real ground for each of 2 kinds, it can be called "clinging to rite and rituals". Sitting is not excluded, just the same way lying, or standing etc...., because they all occur naturally. It is the belief that bhavana lies in a "formal practice" which is the problem. A quiet environment is conducive to samatha bhavana, but for vipassana bhavana, it doesn't matter at all, any kind of reality can be object of understanding.


 

Anyway, couldn't one argue that formal sitting practice helps build concentration thus making "mindfulness" (in conventional terms) clearer?


Concentration (ekaggata cetasika) arises in all cittas. What should be cultivated is kusala, not ekaggata. However, when calmness is there and strong, the characteristic of ekaggata manifests, that why it is refered to as samadhi (concentration) and not ekaggata. However, there are micha samadhi, and samma samadhi too, they refer to the kind of samadhi with akusala and kusala respectively. It is the 2nd that needs to be cultivated, and we are back to the above.

Hope it helps,

D.F



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Posted 15 September 2013 - 06:00 PM

 Dan74 » Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:02 pm

dhamma follower wrote:Dear Mr Man,

 

but a ritualized practice may actually help one give up attachment to rules and rituals and the belief in self, don't you think?


By simple logic, if ones thinks that ritualized practice is the way, one will not give up attachment to rules and rituals.
One gives up only when one realizes than it is the wrong way.

Similarly, if one believes that there is a self who can condition dhammas as wished, which is the underlying idea of "formal practice" how can there be detachment from an idea of self?

Best wishes,

D.F


Hi D.F.

Thank you for your response. 

I think there is much in our mental habits that is conditioned, rigid, unexamined and often harmful, in other words like the worst kind of ritual. To introduce a positive ritual which fosters greater awareness, spaciousness and clarity actually serves to shed light and dismantle existing negative patterns.

It seems to me that in time, when the rigidity of the mind is loosened, what used to be a ritualised practice turns more organic and natural and begins to permeate other aspects of one's life.

But in the beginning (and maybe the middle too if one can make such distinctions) introducing formal practice is very useful for many many people. And I don't just mean meditation, sitting and walking. Prostrations and chanting can also be very useful. But this is not to say that this way is for everyone.

_/|\_

 

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by danieLion » Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:17 pm

tiltbillings wrote:

Coyote wrote:Tiltbillings, thanks for the reply, and I agree.
However, I specifically wanted to know Robertk's opinion on those questions as I don't think thus far in the thread the limits/boundaries of the "anti-formal practice" view have been clearly stated.

You might want to do a search for Sujin and read through the various threads that pop-up. Robertk is advocating a very particular point of view, which should be fine, except that the Sujin point of view, in the hands of her followers, can be highly critical and dismissive of other points of view. The issue here for me is not that the Sujin teachings are or are not efficacious; rather, the concern I have is about the uncompromising criticism of formal meditation practice (of whatever style) as not being efficacious.

Sujin Boriharnwanaket, author of A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas (apparently the whole book here)?

Blog: In The Lion's Den

 

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by perkele » Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:44 pm

Dan74 wrote:I think there is much in our mental habits that is conditioned, rigid, unexamined and often harmful, in other words like the worst kind of ritual. To introduce a positive ritual which fosters greater awareness, spaciousness and clarity actually serves to shed light and dismantle existing negative patterns.

It seems to me that in time, when the rigidity of the mind is loosened, what used to be a ritualised practice turns more organic and natural and begins to permeate other aspects of one's life.

Very well said.
And following discussions like this one can at times do much to loosen such rigidity a bit.
Very interesting things have been said here and explored from various angles.
Thanks for all the good contributions. It has been very interesting for me to follow this discussion.

Whatever there is of value and merit, helpful in some way in any of my contributions here,
may it be dedicated to my parents, that they may find peace and happiness.
And may it be dedicated to the Sangha of the noble ones, worthy of gifts, worthy of support, for its long-term further existence and the welfare of all beings.

And may anything wrong I have done here be correctly seen as wrong, and helpfully pointed out when possible.

 

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 09:23 PM

 tiltbillings » Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:48 pm

danieLion wrote:Sujin Boriharnwanaket, author of A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas (apparently the whole book here)?

Yes.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by ground » Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:19 pm

robertk wrote:robertk wrote:
But what is thought to be mindfulness in common parlance is often some type of tedious focussing on an approximation of the here and now. This is merely concentration, without any sati or panna, and is a wrong path.



 

But if we don't pay attention to our experience, how can sati and panna develop?


So first we need to know the conditions for these factors. This thread can consider the causes for panna, wisdom.

Maybe a strange idea behind those words. 

Is there something that believes to know the ideas behind each individual "parlance"? If yes this may be the effect of association with a specific group of individuals and hearing their words or reading their words generating ideas based upon these and taking these ideas to be "common parlance".

Why aren't the ideas behind the idea "common parlance" assumed to be found in MN 10: Satipatthana Sutta? 

What idea is expressed with "the here and now"? 

 

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by ground » Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:20 am

robertk wrote:So first we need to know the conditions for these factors. This thread can consider the causes for panna, wisdom.


The causes are the three introspective understandings:

 

B. Bodhi wrote:understanding of the known

understanding by scrutinization

understanding as abandonment

S. 354 n. 36 und S. 1052 n. 42 (SN, B. Bodhi)


 

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by robertk » Sun Jan 27, 2013 2:37 am

Coyote wrote:Robertk ect.,

Do you think it would be silabbata paramasa for a Bhikkhu to devote time to formal meditation? How about for a lay person to meditate, but not "vipassana", say - Brahmavihara meditation or recollection of the Triple Gem? How about bowing or attending puja, chanting? Where is the line between formal and non formal practice anyway?
I ask this to get a clear understanding of your opinion.

Anyway, couldn't one argue that formal sitting practice helps build concentration thus making "mindfulness" (in conventional terms) clearer?

nice question: and it shows you differentiate between vipassana and samatha.
For reasons which are not entirely clear to me the meditation on breath is often recommended to new Buddhists. And that is one type of samatha where a secluded spot and an erect sitting posture are helpful.

But we should know that anapanasati is singled out as being the most difficult of all the 40 objects. Here is a passage from the Visuddhimagga Viii


QUOTE

211: "Although any meditation subject, no matter what, is successful only in one who is mindful and fully aware, yet any meditation subject other than this one gets more evident as he goes on giving it his attention. But this mindfulness of breathing is difficult, difficult to develop, a field in which only the minds of Buddhas, paccekabuddhas and Buddhas sons are at home. It is no trivial matter, nor can it be cultivated by trivial persons.."

We might be concentrating on the breath with subtle lobha (attachment) not realising that true samatha comes with alobha, detachment.

So in many suttas the Buddha was speaking to monks who had vast accumulations of panna and other parami. It is not, I believe, that the Buddha said that all should take up anapanasati.

There are other types of samatha - such as Maranasati (meditation on death)- that are suitable for all times.
For example the Anguttara nikaya (Book of the Elevens ii 13 p213 Mahanama) says about Buddhanusati and Dhammanusati and several other samatha objects:

"`

you should develop it as you sit, as you stand, as you lie, as you apply yourself to business. You should make it grow as you dwell at home in your lodging crowded with children"


Anyway as the visuddimagga says "any meditation subject, no matter what, is successful only in one who is mindful and fully aware," the main point has to be knowing what is real sati and what is only perception ... 

For bowing and so on.
It is a way of showing respect and can help us focus on the virtues of the triple gem, or it can be done with attachment...

Your question about concentration helping: it only helps if it is associated with kusala citta. Samadhi can easily be miccha-samadhi and have the same characteristics as the samma version.

http://www.abhidhamma.org/

 

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 09:24 PM

tiltbillings » Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:15 am

robertk wrote:For reasons which are not entirely clear to me the meditation on breath is often recommended to new Buddhists. And that is one type of samatha where a secluded spot and an erect sitting posture are helpful.

But we should know that anapanasati is singled out as being the most difficult of all the 40 objects. Here is a passage from the Visuddhimagga Viii


QUOTE

211: "Although any meditation subject, no matter what, is successful only in one who is mindful and fully aware, yet any meditation subject other than this one gets more evident as he goes on giving it his attention. But this mindfulness of breathing is difficult, difficult to develop, a field in which only the minds of Buddhas, paccekabuddhas and Buddhas sons are at home. It is no trivial matter, nor can it be cultivated by trivial persons.."

On one level it is, indeed, very subtle, but it is also extremely accessible and if one is consistent and persistent with it, one can see degrees of success in concentration and mindfulness, and it a direct body practice that is useful on any number of levels, in any number of ways.

 

We might be concentrating on the breath with subtle lobha (attachment) not realising that true samatha comes with alobha, detachment.

Without question, when one starts a practice, whether is breath awareness or cultivating right view, or mindfulness of death, there is going to be all sorts of "subtle attachments" and self centered expectations. It goes with the territory, as does varying degrees of insight into these "subtle attachments" and expectations as one does the practice, allowing one to let go of them. You cannot wish or think these problems away, but as one begans to see them and understand them as a result of directly seeing them via meditation practice and working with the rest of Eightfold Path, there can be a genuine letting go.

Any spiritual practice/discipline, including the Sujin type, can be a basis of "subtle attachments."


 

Anyway as the visuddimagga says "any meditation subject, no matter what, is successful only in one who is mindful and fully aware," the main point has to be knowing what is real sati and what is only perception ...

And by doing the practice as outlined in the Eightfold Path, which includes formal meditation, the conditions for the arising and maturing of concentration and mindulness are cultivated.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

 

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by Coyote » Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:07 am

robertk wrote:nice question: and it shows you differentiate between vipassana and samatha....


Thank you for the reply (and dhamma follower). I certainly agree that breath meditation is harder than other meditation, and perhaps should not be done by beginners. At least, I think there is a lot to be said for not doing this kind of meditation at all until one is at least established in Sila.

"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared." 
Iti 26

 

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by Spiny Norman » Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:15 am

Coyote wrote:Anyway, couldn't one argue that formal sitting practice helps build concentration thus making "mindfulness" (in conventional terms) clearer?


One could argue that's the whole point of formal sitting practice - to facilitate mindfulness and insight off the cushion. From a practical perspective I've found that maintaining mindfulness withouta sitting practice is much more difficult.

 

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by tiltbillings » Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:20 am

Coyote wrote:I think there is a lot to be said for not doing this kind of meditation at all until one is at least established in Sila.

There is no reason to think that breath meditation and sīla cannot work well together.

 

I certainly agree that breath meditation is harder than other meditation

Harder than what other meditations?

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

 

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