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The Causes for Wisdom


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#341 Virgo

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 07:57 PM

by tiltbillings » Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:13 pm

robertk wrote:. . . 
Understanding has to be developed for an endlessly long time.

Not according the Buddha.



 

Some people dislike it that sati and panna develop only very gradually, but there is no other

way.

Gradually is a relative word, but if one follows the Buddha's teachings, we can see/experience that mindfulness and wisdom are not somethings in some hopelessly distant future.

 

If someone is impatient and tries to combine different ways of practice in

order to hasten the development of panna, he makes his life very complicated.

The Sujin method described here seems to be hopelessly complicated and contrary to the Buddha's very direct teachings.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by rohana » Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:39 am

Not having read the entire thread, may be someone can summarize the answers to the following questions from Sujin-approach perspective? I'm guess some of these have already been addressed:

  • How is the Sujin position different from the position taken by the Brahmin Unnabha

"Brahman, the holy life is lived under the Blessed One with the aim of abandoning desire."

"Is there a path, is there a practice, for the abandoning of that desire?"

"Yes, there is a path, there is a practice, for the abandoning of that desire."

"What is the path, the practice, for the abandoning of that desire?"

"Brahman, there is the case where a monk develops the base of power endowed with concentration founded on desire & the fabrications of exertion. He develops the base of power endowed with concentration founded on persistence... concentration founded on intent... concentration founded on discrimination & the fabrications of exertion. This, Brahman, is the path, this is the practice for the abandoning of that desire."

"If that's so, Master Ananda, then it's an endless path, and not one with an end, for it's impossible that one could abandon desire by means of desire."

  • When the Buddha talked about a 'gradual training' was he excluding any formal practice? 
  • What about formal practice for the purpose of developing jhāna, after going to 'the foot of a tree or an empty dwelling'? 
  • Similar to any idea of 'I-will-practice-meditation', how does one tackle any lōbha that can exist as 'I will follow Sujin's advice to gain awakening at some future point' or 'I will read Abhidhamma' - because even when we read a dhamma book, a subtle desire for awakening can be just as present as when we do any formal meditation. (Basically, how does even listening to a dhamma talk or reading a dhamma book not be part of a 'formal practice'?)

My understanding is that the cultivation of insight into aniccā, dukkha and anattā leads to dispassion. Once dispassion sets in, one let's go, making the breakthrough to stream entry(so the formal practice is a means to an end). However, usually the moment of release happens at an unexpected moment, outside of formal practice, since during the formal practice there can be too much clinging to the idea of the goal. So I think there's certainly a point here to be made, but it seems to me like Khun Sujin has taken this basic idea and run it into an extreme.



#342 Virgo

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 07:57 PM

by robertk » Thu Oct 03, 2013 6:28 am

rohana wrote:Not having read the entire thread, may be someone can summarize the answers to the following questions from Sujin-approach perspective? I'm guess some of these have already been addressed:


My understanding is that the cultivation of insight into aniccā, dukkha and anattā leads to dispassion. Once dispassion sets in, one let's go, making the breakthrough to stream entry(so the formal practice is a means to an end). However, usually the moment of release happens at an unexpected moment, outside of formal practice, since during the formal practice there can be too much clinging to the idea of the goal. So I think there's certainly a point here to be made, but it seems to me like Khun Sujin has taken this basic idea and run it into an extreme.


Without right view any "cultivation of insight into anicca dukkha and anatta" is likely to be self delusion.

retro said earlier in this thread:


 

What is needed to make those factors you mention "Right" however, is a foundation in Right View. If someone does certain exercises without Right View as the foundation, the exercise itself will not be Right, and no amount of effort or sincere dedication to that activity will make it otherwise. If someone does an exercise (whether it be selecting a sandwich, sacrificing goats, or sitting down with closed eyes) in the absence of Right View (and thereby does not understand the Dhammic causality associated with the exercise and are doing it simply out of faith that understanding will arise simply as a consequence of doing the activity) then that exercise could well be described as a ritual, to which one could become attached.

Retro. 

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by tiltbillings » Thu Oct 03, 2013 6:42 am

robertk wrote:

rohana wrote:Not having read the entire thread, may be someone can summarize the answers to the following questions from Sujin-approach perspective? I'm guess some of these have already been addressed:


My understanding is that the cultivation of insight into aniccā, dukkha and anattā leads to dispassion. Once dispassion sets in, one let's go, making the breakthrough to stream entry(so the formal practice is a means to an end). However, usually the moment of release happens at an unexpected moment, outside of formal practice, since during the formal practice there can be too much clinging to the idea of the goal. So I think there's certainly a point here to be made, but it seems to me like Khun Sujin has taken this basic idea and run it into an extreme.


Without right view any "cultivation of insight into anicca dukkha and anatta" is likely to be self delusion.

The problem with that is that "Right View," until ariya status attained, is always a work in progress, and it is far more than having an intellectual/conceptual "right view," which if taken alone, is far more likely to lead one down the garden-path of assuming more for one's self than is warranted. Right View is more than just careful study of texts; it is what arises from with putting the Buddha's teaching into practice, actively doing: bhavana/meditation practice, sila, and the rest of the 8 Fold Path.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

 

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by tiltbillings » Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:01 am

rohana wrote:

·         When the Buddha talked about a 'gradual training' was he excluding any formal practice? 

·         What about formal practice for the purpose of developing jhāna, after going to 'the foot of a tree or an empty dwelling'? 

·         Similar to any idea of 'I-will-practice-meditation', how does one tackle any lōbha that can exist as 'I will follow Sujin's advice to gain awakening at some future point' or 'I will read Abhidhamma' - because even when we read a dhamma book, a subtle desire for awakening can be just as present as when we do any formal meditation. (Basically, how does even listening to a dhamma talk or reading a dhamma book not be part of a 'formal practice'?)

My understanding is that the cultivation of insight into aniccā, dukkha and anattā leads to dispassion. Once dispassion sets in, one let's go, making the breakthrough to stream entry(so the formal practice is a means to an end). However, usually the moment of release happens at an unexpected moment, outside of formal practice, since during the formal practice there can be too much clinging to the idea of the goal. So I think there's certainly a point here to be made, but it seems to me like Khun Sujin has taken this basic idea and run it into an extreme.

No answer to these questions and statement.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

 

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#343 Virgo

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 07:58 PM

by Virgo » Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:20 am

tiltbillings wrote:As we have seen graphically illustrated above, Sujin really does not understand either theoretically or practically meditation practice. Sad that she feels this need to disparage meditation practice in this strawman manner.

Why not keep it about dhammas, not about people?

Kevin

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by tiltbillings » Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:07 pm

Virgo wrote:

tiltbillings wrote:As we have seen graphically illustrated above, Sujin really does not understand either theoretically or practically meditation practice. Sad that she feels this need to disparage meditation practice in this strawman manner.

Why not keep it about dhammas, not about people?

Kevin

You tell us why Sujin, in describing her particular methodology, feels she needs to disparage meditation practice, which she clearly does not understand? This is graphically evident in the above linked Q&A with her about metta practice that you gave us above. 

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=15952&start=280#p229904




The disparagement of meditation practice, as we see in robertk's msgs above, comes directly from her, and this disparagement in her teachings seems to have some degree of centrality to her teachings. She is the one being quoted here as the authority on all things Dhamma. My comments about her are in terms of her teachings and the disparagement, her lack of understanding, of meditation practice, which is reflected in what her followers are saying in this thread.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

 

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#344 RobertK

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 04:55 AM

vism. XX While comprehending materiality he should see how materiality is
generated,13 that is to say, how this materiality is generated by the four causes
beginning with kamma.

footnote 13. “First it has to be seen by inference according to the texts. Afterwards it gradually
comes to be seen by personal experience when the knowledge of development gets
stronger” (Vism-mhþ 790).

 the commentary to the Visuddhimagga.
Page 639 of the PDF version by Bhikkhu Nanamoli.



#345 RobertK

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 05:07 PM

18. "But here some woman or man when visiting a monk or brahman, asks: 'What is wholesome, venerable sir?... Or what, by my doing it, will be long for my welfare and happiness?' Due to having performed and completed such kammas, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a happy destination... If instead he comes to the human state, he is wise wherever he is reborn. This is the way that leads to wisdom, that is to say, when visiting a monk or brahman, to ask: 'What is wholesome, venerable sir?... Or what, by my doing it, will be long for my welfare and happiness?'
Mn135
http://www.accesstoi...n.135.nymo.html

#346 RobertK

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Posted 16 May 2015 - 03:50 AM

Ninoslav Nanamoli wrote:
One understands things when one understands them, when the knowledge in regard to the nature of an arisen thing is there, and not when one successfully goes through a set of methods and observances that relies on almost mechanical set of motions one has to perform attentively. Any bodily act and any act that pertains to the bodily domain (such as the celebrated and misguided notion of “sensations” which involve observing different parts and aspects of one’s body) is simply irrelevant for the discerning of the nature of an arisen phenomenon. It is misleading and obstructive, because it is impossible to engage in a technique without the implicit belief that a set of motions, that the chosen technique consists of, performed in a particular mechanical order, will somehow, by itself, reveal the nature of things. By holding this belief and faith in a technique, one will not be trying to understand things, and by not making attempts toward the understanding, one will definitely remain devoid of it.

One sees things correctly – as phenomena – by understanding what the phenomenon is, and there is no technique that can make this magically occur. Thus, the closest to what one should do in order to obtain understanding is: trying to understand. For as long as a person is attempting to understand and see the nature of an arisen thing, that person might actually succeed in it, for it is certain that understanding cannot occur in someone who is not trying to understand. Incidentally (or not), there is never any mention of meditation techniques in the Suttas, but ‘understanding’ and ‘discernment’, as a way to reach the final freedom from suffering, is described and referred to countless times.