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The Causes for Wisdom


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#321 Virgo

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 11:46 PM

 mikenz66 » Mon May 13, 2013 4:16 am

dhamma follower wrote:

So, this is just as much a "method" as anything else

 

This is the reason I wrote this: 

dhamma follower wrote:This description might lead one to think that there is in fact an exercise that one must try to do. But in reality, it is totally an empty process, causes and effects, causes and effects. If there is trying to make it, it can not happen, because then it is done by the idea of someone who can, and by the desire to get something. The entire process is ignated actually by a clear understanding that it is an empty proccess, which is conditioned by right understanding now. This is a subtle point that we have a great difficulty getting across

And I have given you quotes from at least two other teachers (and you've added Sayadaw T yourself) who say essentially the same thing. So it's not something unique to Ajahn Sujin. How could it be, when it's the teaching of the Buddha? Of course, anyone can say that they are not operating with the "idea of someone who can". Whether they really are another matter. 

 

 

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by binocular » Mon May 13, 2013 5:40 am

tiltbillings wrote:

mikenz66 wrote:I think you (the students) would be much more convincing if you simply explained your approach, and discussed commonalities with other Dhamma students, rather than putting so much effort into arguing about differences. In my experience, that is never fruitful.

But it is not just arguing about differences, but adamantly stating that those who differ from Sujin's point of view are categorically wrong, on a wrong path, deluded by self, motivated by lobha.

 

So?

 

No, really: let's explore this.

 

What exactly is wrong with one teacher and her school looking down on others and directly or indirectly claiming she is the one who has the right understandign of the Buddha's teachings?

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by retrofuturist » Mon May 13, 2013 6:01 am

Greetings,

 

dhamma follower wrote:As soon as there's idea of a method, it is the idea of someone who can (attend to the realities as they arise).

I'm not sure whether this is an "English as a second language" issue, or whether this is actually what Sujin teaches, but that is just plain stupid.

 

That's like saying, "as soon there's idea of a Noble Eightfold Path, it is the idea of someone who can (follow that path)"

 

I'm glad the Buddha didn't suffer from puggalaphobia... 

 

 

Metta,

Retro. 

If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding: 

Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)

 

Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:

One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7

 

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#322 Virgo

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 11:47 PM

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 tiltbillings » Mon May 13, 2013 6:10 am

binocular wrote:

tiltbillings wrote:

mikenz66 wrote:I think you (the students) would be much more convincing if you simply explained your approach, and discussed commonalities with other Dhamma students, rather than putting so much effort into arguing about differences. In my experience, that is never fruitful.

But it is not just arguing about differences, but adamantly stating that those who differ from Sujin's point of view are categorically wrong, on a wrong path, deluded by self, motivated by lobha.

 

So?

 

No, really: let's explore this.

 

What exactly is wrong with one teacher and her school looking down on others and directly or indirectly claiming she is the one who has the right understandign of the Buddha's teachings?

You tell me what is not wrong with it.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.

SN I, 38.

 

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.

People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by binocular » Mon May 13, 2013 10:02 am

tiltbillings wrote:You tell me what is not wrong with it.

What did you expect?

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by tiltbillings » Mon May 13, 2013 10:04 am

binocular wrote:

tiltbillings wrote:You tell me what is not wrong with it.

What did you expect?

That.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.

SN I, 38.

 

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.

People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by binocular » Mon May 13, 2013 10:05 am

retrofuturist wrote:puggalaphobia...

Good term!

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#323 Virgo

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 11:47 PM

 binocular » Mon May 13, 2013 10:06 am

tiltbillings wrote:

binocular wrote:

tiltbillings wrote:You tell me what is not wrong with it.

What did you expect?

That.

 

You think I'm being too peaceful about all this?

 

You think it's time for some Vajra wrath?

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by tiltbillings » Mon May 13, 2013 10:10 am

binocular wrote:

You think I'm being too peaceful about all this?

I do not understand the question.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.

SN I, 38.

 

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.

People live in one another’s shelter.

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#324 Virgo

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 11:48 PM

 binocular » Mon May 13, 2013 10:18 am

There is a person who appears to be proposing to know the one and only truth about what the Buddha really taught and meant. And this person sometimes has a negative attitude toward others.

 

I point out that this sort of thing is to be expected in this world. That's just how it is. There is no use to get upset over it.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by tiltbillings » Mon May 13, 2013 10:34 am

binocular wrote:There is a person who appears to be proposing to know the one and only truth about what the Buddha really taught and meant. And this person sometimes has a negative attitude toward others.

 

I point out that this sort of thing is to be expected in this world. That's just how it is. There is no use to get upset over it.

Was I upset? The last time I checked (10 seconds ago) I have not been; however, that does not mean that such business should not be responed to.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.

SN I, 38.

 

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.

People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by Alex123 » Mon May 13, 2013 10:40 am

dhamma follower wrote:[1] "Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view. And what is wrong view?

 

So what? One learns conceptually what is path and what is not, and then one follows it.

 

dhamma follower wrote:What is, for you, the meaning of sukha vipassana?

 

Some people don't have that much obscurations, so their samādhi does not have to be as strong. If it works for you, then great. I have lots of defilements.

If life is imperfect (dukkha), then it is ignorant to try to change it to perfection (sukha). Accept what is!

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by binocular » Mon May 13, 2013 10:44 am

tiltbillings wrote:

binocular wrote:There is a person who appears to be proposing to know the one and only truth about what the Buddha really taught and meant. And this person sometimes has a negative attitude toward others.

 

I point out that this sort of thing is to be expected in this world. That's just how it is. There is no use to get upset over it.

Was I upset? The last time I checked (10 seconds ago) I have not been; however, that does not mean that such business should not be responed to.

 

What business should not be or should be responded to?

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#325 Virgo

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 11:49 PM

 tiltbillings » Mon May 13, 2013 10:53 am

binocular wrote:

tiltbillings wrote:

binocular wrote:There is a person who appears to be proposing to know the one and only truth about what the Buddha really taught and meant. And this person sometimes has a negative attitude toward others.

 

I point out that this sort of thing is to be expected in this world. That's just how it is. There is no use to get upset over it.

Was I upset? The last time I checked (10 seconds ago) I have not been; however, that does not mean that such business should not be responed to.

 

What business should not be or should be responded to?

Start a new thread.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.

SN I, 38.

 

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.

People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by kirk5a » Mon May 13, 2013 1:10 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

 

dhamma follower wrote:As soon as there's idea of a method, it is the idea of someone who can (attend to the realities as they arise).

I'm not sure whether this is an "English as a second language" issue, or whether this is actually what Sujin teaches, but that is just plain stupid.

 

That's like saying, "as soon there's idea of a Noble Eightfold Path, it is the idea of someone who can (follow that path)"

 

I'm glad the Buddha didn't suffer from puggalaphobia... 

 

 

Metta,

Retro. 

Ha! "puggalaphobia." Who knows, maybe the Puggalavadins were reacting to puggalaphobia. Not that they didn't get carried away also. But you're right, the Buddha cleary did not make these artificial attempts to sanitize his teachings of all personal speech.

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by dhamma follower » Tue May 14, 2013 6:31 am

kirk5a wrote:When I follow up on the explanation given in the Visuddhimagga for the manner of practice for the "sukkha-vipassaka" what I find is instructions to go on solitary retreat, direct attention to the various aspects of the body, discern the elements, make effort and develop concentration.

 

The part on elements is in the Concentration Chapter, I don't think it represents the manner of practice for the dry insight worker as a whole. The chapter on Understanding reflects a larger spectrum of objects for insights: four primaries, 18 elements, 12 bases, 5 aggregates. And apart from the going to a secluded place, I don't see anything like a formal practice in the description. It's rather all about a work of understanding.

 

Post unfinished, please replace by the next one

Last edited by dhamma follower on Tue May 14, 2013 6:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by tiltbillings » Tue May 14, 2013 6:47 am

dhamma follower wrote:

kirk5a wrote:When I follow up on the explanation given in the Visuddhimagga for the manner of practice for the "sukkha-vipassaka" what I find is instructions to go on solitary retreat, direct attention to the various aspects of the body, discern the elements, make effort and develop concentration.

 

The part on elements is in the Concentration Chapter, I don't think it represents the manner of practice for the dry insight worker as a whole. The chapter on Understanding reflects a larger spectrum of objects for insights: four primaries, 18 elements, 12 bases, 5 aggregates. And apart from the going to a secluded place, I don't see anything like a formal practice in the description. It's rather all about a work of understanding.

Part of the problem here is that your conception of "formal" practice is a straw-man that poorly reflects the real world.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.

SN I, 38.

 

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.

People live in one another’s shelter.

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#326 Virgo

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 11:49 PM

 dhamma follower » Tue May 14, 2013 6:49 am

kirk5a wrote:When I follow up on the explanation given in the Visuddhimagga for the manner of practice for the "sukkha-vipassaka" what I find is instructions to go on solitary retreat, direct attention to the various aspects of the body, discern the elements, make effort and develop concentration.

 

The part on elements is in the Concentration Chapter, I don't think it represents the manner of practice for the dry insight worker as a whole. The chapter on Understanding reflects a larger spectrum of objects for insights: four primaries, 18 elements, 12 bases, 5 aggregates. And apart from the going to a secluded place, I don't see anything like a formal practice in the description on the development of concentration based on four elements. It's rather all about a work of understanding. 

 

IMHO, because of the core of both developments (samatha and vipassana) is understanding (of different kinds), I don't think we should imitate the behavior of what is described in the texts. Rather i would assess my level of understanding first. I can imagine very well that when understanding has been developed to a certain stage, living in seclusion will seem to be the most natural thing to do. And when the danger of sense pleasure has really been seen by wisdom, nothing will be better than a forest-gone recluse life devoting to the escape from sense pleasure.

 

“Monks, these five are forest-gone. What five? 

“One is forest-gone out of folly and blindness; one out of evil desires and longings; 

one foolish and mind-tossed; one at the thought: ”It is praised by Buddhas and 

their disciples”; and one is forest-gone just because his wants are little, just for 

contentment, just to mark (his own faults) 8

, just for seclusion, just because it is 

the very thing 9

“Verily, monks, of these five who have gone to the forest, he who has gone just 

because his wants are little, for contentment, to mark (his own faults), for 

seclusion, just because it is the very thing-- he of the five is topmost, best, 

foremost, highest, elect. 

“Monks, just as from the cow comes milk, from milk cream, from cream butter, 

from butter ghee, from ghee the skim of ghee which is reckoned topmost; even so, 

monks, of these five forest-gone, he who has gone just because his wants are little, 

for contentment, to mark (his own faults), for seclusion, and just because it is the 

very thing–he of the five is topmost, best, foremost, highest, elect.”

 

Gradual sayings, Part III, Ch XIX, 181- Forest gone

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by dhamma follower » Tue May 14, 2013 6:58 am

mikenz66 wrote:And I have given you quotes from at least two other teachers (and you've added Sayadaw T yourself) who say essentially the same thing. So it's not something unique to Ajahn Sujin. How could it be, when it's the teaching of the Buddha? Of course, anyone can say that they are not operating with the "idea of someone who can". Whether they really are another matter. 

 

 

Mike

 

I would not say that Sayadaw U Tejaniya is teaching the same thing. He is saying many things similar and I believe his understanding of the Dhamma will agree with AS's.

 

I can't comment on the others because I don't know them well enough. But it's good to know that some teachers are moving in that direction too. 

 

Brgds,

D.F

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by dhamma follower » Tue May 14, 2013 7:03 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

 

dhamma follower wrote:As soon as there's idea of a method, it is the idea of someone who can (attend to the realities as they arise).

I'm not sure whether this is an "English as a second language" issue, or whether this is actually what Sujin teaches, but that is just plain stupid.

 

That's like saying, "as soon there's idea of a Noble Eightfold Path, it is the idea of someone who can (follow that path)"

 

I'm glad the Buddha didn't suffer from puggalaphobia... 

 

 

Metta,

Retro. 

 

Dear Retro,

 

A third option is :may be an issue of comprehension. Some people might not find that so plain stupid 

 

When I was 18 and heard about the Four Noble Truth for the first time, I thought: "it's a silly stuff".

 

Puggalaphobia? Nice word, but may be Ditthiphobia will be a more proper one in this case.

 

Brgds,

 

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#327 Virgo

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 11:50 PM

 tiltbillings » Tue May 14, 2013 7:28 am

dhamma follower wrote:

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

 

dhamma follower wrote:As soon as there's idea of a method, it is the idea of someone who can (attend to the realities as they arise).

I'm not sure whether this is an "English as a second language" issue, or whether this is actually what Sujin teaches, but that is just plain stupid.

 

That's like saying, "as soon there's idea of a Noble Eightfold Path, it is the idea of someone who can (follow that path)"

 

I'm glad the Buddha didn't suffer from puggalaphobia... 

 

 

Metta,

Retro. 

 

Dear Retro,

 

A third option is :may be an issue of comprehension. Some people might not find that so plain stupid 

 

When I was 18 and heard about the Four Noble Truth for the first time, I thought: "it's a silly stuff".

 

Puggalaphobia? Nice word, but may be Ditthiphobia will be a more proper one in this case.

You have totally missed the point here. The suttas make it quite plainly clear that one can use conventional language to speak accurately and asutely about the Dhamma. Just because one uses impersonal abhidhamma-speak does not mean one better understands the Dhamma than one who uses sutta language. What we have seen displayed with this Sujin abhidhamma-speak in a muddling of the Dhamma, making it look like a form of hard determinism.

 

"As soon as there's idea of a method, it is the idea of someone who can (attend to the realities as they arise)." You are seriously missing something here.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.

SN I, 38.

 

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.

People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by kirk5a » Tue May 14, 2013 1:37 pm

dhamma follower wrote:

kirk5a wrote:When I follow up on the explanation given in the Visuddhimagga for the manner of practice for the "sukkha-vipassaka" what I find is instructions to go on solitary retreat, direct attention to the various aspects of the body, discern the elements, make effort and develop concentration.

 

The part on elements is in the Concentration Chapter, I don't think it represents the manner of practice for the dry insight worker as a whole. The chapter on Understanding reflects a larger spectrum of objects for insights: four primaries, 18 elements, 12 bases, 5 aggregates. And apart from the going to a secluded place, I don't see anything like a formal practice in the description on the development of concentration based on four elements. It's rather all about a work of understanding. 

 

Yes, it's in the "concentration" chapter, and we are referred there from the "understanding" chapter. Which explicitly demonstrates that concentration, individual effort, "method," "formal practice" - these are all how the Visuddhimagga describe the practice of the "dry-insight worker." 

Vis.M XVIII wrote:But one whose vehicle is pure insight, or that same aforesaid one whose vehicle

is serenity, discerns the four elements in brief or in detail in one of the various ways

given in the chapter on the definition of the four elements (XI.27ff.).

 

 

Turning to that chapter, it says:

41. So firstly, one of quick understanding who wants to develop this meditation

subject should go into solitary retreat.

Then he should advert to his own entire

material body and discern the elements in brief in this way: “In this body what

is stiffenedness or harshness is the earth element, what is cohesion or fluidity25

[352] is the water element, what is maturing (ripening) or heat is the fire element,

what is distension or movement is the air element.” And he should advert and

give attention to it and review it again and again as “earth element, water

element,” that is to say, as mere elements, not a living being, and soulless.

42. As he makes effort in this way it is not long before concentration arises in

him, which is reinforced by understanding that illuminates the classification of

the elements, and which is only access and does not reach absorption because it

has states with individual essences as its object.

 

http://www.aimwell.org/News/news.html

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by robertk » Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:53 am

A conversation with Sujin and Nina last year about intellectual understanding :

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastu ... age/131507

Than Acharn Sujin, Wang Nam Khiew, 16th, noon 1m)

 

TA Sujin: Everyone has to develop right understanding.

 

N: Maybe we are impatient or we don't have enough courage...

 

TA: ignorance, and clinging, until it's less and less; reality can appear to

pa~n~na as it is, now it appears differently; like the four primaries (rupas):

they do not appear to seeing, but what appears (to seeing) is that which arises

with them (color/vanna), so it's like the transformation of the four primaries

into different things, like magicians; and it takes quite a long time to learn

how the magician can do (his tricks); and this is much more (difficult) than

(learning) the magician (tricks), so it takes longer time to understand the way

the dhammas do (their tricks) .

 

N: But we're now in the current, pleasant objects, the mountains, the trees, and

we like it, just pleasant feelings.

 

TA: A reality, pa~n~na can understand it, it's conditioned, it goes away before

we can know what it is; it's like: as soon as it's object, it's gone, so the

other object appears, when pa~n~na understands that; otherwise the self tries,

to cling, and thinking out whatever it is, nama, rupa and so forth, and paccaya;

but actually intellectual understanding just conditions detachment from

clinging, when time comes.

 

N: Intellectual understanding....

 

TA: ... is condition for having less attachment

 

N: Even intellectual understanding

 

TA: But it's not as effective right understanding as direct

 

N: No

 

TA: But it can see the difference between the two

 

N: It's not so easy to know what is direct understanding

 

TA: When awareness arises it's different, just a little different, but it has to

be there; it's like seeing and hearing, it seems like they arise together; so,

as that object is still there, right understanding is another moment, like

seeing and hearing, but it appears, so pa~n~na can understand that, no other

object, only that object which is there, seems like appearing, by nimitta.

 

N: It's more pleasant than yesterday... that museum 

 

TA: Yes, nothing can be compared to the moment of understanding, it's so

precious, to understand; from birth: no understanding, until learning the

Teachings, to understand; the object is exactly the same, from aeons and aeons,

visible object can be seen, and the other objects cannot be seen, so there can

be understanding of everything when there is more and more intellectual

understanding, which will condition direct understanding, (it) keeps on going by

conditions, otherwise (it's) 'I' and 'how I can...' or 'why...'

http://www.abhidhamma.org/

 

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#328 Virgo

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 11:52 PM

 tiltbillings » Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:29 am

robertk wrote:. . .

And the point is?

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.

SN I, 38.

 

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by retrofuturist » Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:23 pm

Greetings,

 

tiltbillings wrote:And the point is?

"This thread can consider the causes for panna, wisdom." (from the original post)

 

Metta,

Retro. 

If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding: 

Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)

 

Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:

One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7

 

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by tiltbillings » Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:12 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

 

tiltbillings wrote:And the point is?

"This thread can consider the causes for panna, wisdom." (from the original post)

 

Metta,

Retro. 

Which does not really answer the question in relationship to the post it was a response to. Intellectual knowledge definitely has a role to play, but it is a subservient role.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.

SN I, 38.

 

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.

People live in one another’s shelter.

 

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#329 Virgo

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 11:52 PM

 retrofuturist » Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:14 am

Greetings,

 

Huh? Which post... Kirk's post from May 2013?

 

(perhaps the posts after Robert's should be removed... 

 )

 

Metta,

Retro. 

If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding: 

Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)

 

Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:

One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7

 

Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by tiltbillings » Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:57 am

retrofuturist wrote:

(perhaps the posts after Robert's should be removed... )

Probably not. In the broader context of this thread, I'd like to hear what the point is that he trying to make by posting this dialogue.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.

SN I, 38.

 

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.

People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by robertk » Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:04 am

tiltbillings wrote:

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

 

tiltbillings wrote:And the point is?

"This thread can consider the causes for panna, wisdom." (from the original post)

 

Metta,

Retro. 

Which does not really answer the question in relationship to the post it was a response to. Intellectual knowledge definitely has a role to play, but it is a subservient role.

As retro said I posted this in the causes for wisdom thread. As I understand it correct intellectual understanding is the prime cause for deeper levels of understanding.

http://www.abhidhamma.org/

 

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 11:53 PM

 tiltbillings » Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:51 am

robertk wrote:As I understand it correct intellectual understanding is the prime cause for deeper levels of understanding.

Intellectual understanding is important, but who determines that one's understanding is THE correct one?

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.

SN I, 38.

 

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by Mr Man » Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:55 am

tiltbillings wrote:

robertk wrote:As I understand it correct intellectual understanding is the prime cause for deeper levels of understanding.

Intellectual understanding is important, but who determines that one's understanding is THE correct one?

 

I would say that it is the result is what that determines if one's understanding is correct. I also think that it is easy to misunderstand what "intellectual understanding" is. We associate it with an accumulation of information or with things like communication skills.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by tiltbillings » Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:15 am

Mr Man wrote:

tiltbillings wrote:

robertk wrote:As I understand it correct intellectual understanding is the prime cause for deeper levels of understanding.

Intellectual understanding is important, but who determines that one's understanding is THE correct one?

 

I would say that it is the result is what that determines if one's understanding is correct.

Probably so; however, that raises further questions, it would seem.

 

 

I also think that it is easy to misunderstand what "intellectual understanding" is. We associate it with an accumulation of information or with things like communication skills.

It seems, looking at how the followers of the Sujin method talk about their practice, that the Sujin method values what would be characterized as an accumulation of knowledge.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.

SN I, 38.

 

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.

People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by binocular » Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:28 am

tiltbillings wrote:

Mr Man wrote:I would say that it is the result is what that determines if one's understanding is correct.

Probably so; however, that raises further questions, it would seem.

What questions, for example?

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 11:54 PM

 robertk » Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:17 am

So how do the details of abhidhamma help understanding?

 

QUOTEi) formal concept (santhana pannatti) corresponding to the form ofthings, such as land, mountain or tree, which are so designated onaccount of the mode of transition of the elements

.ii) collective concept (samuha pannatti), corresponding to modes ofconstruction of materials, to a collection of things, such as avehicle or a chariot.

iii) conventional concept (sammutti pannatti), such as person orindividual, which is derived from the five khandhas.

iv) local concept (disa pannatti), a notion or idea derived from therevolving of the moon, such as the directions of East or West.v) concept of time (kala pannatti), such as morning, evening.

vi) concept of season (masa pannatti), notions corresponding toseasons and months. The months are designated by names, such as Vesakha.

vii) concept of space (akasa), such as a well or a cave. It isderived from space which is not contacted by the four Great Elements.

viii) nimitta pannatti, the mental image which is acquired throughthe development of samatha, such as the nimitta of a kasina.

 

See http://www.abhidhamma.org/sujin3.htm Realities and Concepts SujinBoriharnwanaket.

 

Acharn Sujin explains in 'Realities and concepts' there are different types of concept. Such words as dosa, lobha, metta, colour,hatred, sound are concepts that designate paramattha dhammas, theyare vijjamana pannatti. Words such as person, animal, computer,Robert, Mike do not refer to paramattha dhammas and are calledavijjamana pannati.

 

) D

oesn't a concept arise at the mind-door?

 

Concepts are dhammarammana(mental object) and they appear at the mind-door. The mind-door has many different objects including citta,cetasika, rupa and nibbana which are all paramattha dhamma. It alsohas concept as an object.By the development of satipatthana the difference between conceptand paramattha dhamma must gradually becomes clearer. 

 

Now you arereading this so it might be worthwhile analysing what is actuallyhappening. There is visible object, the different colours making upthe computer screen. The colours are real (but arising and passingaway rapidly) the computer screen is not real, however the variousrupas that make up the screen are real,(and arising and passing awayceaselessly). There is cakkhuvinnana, seeing consciousness which isreal (and ephemeral) which arises due to the contact of the eyebase(real, conditioned by kamma done in the past, evanescent). Then thereare processes of citta which experience the same object and thenthere are mind-door processes which think about what was seen and soconcepts are formed up. Yet these concepts do not actually exist.There must be this process occuring, no one can stop it occuring. Ifit didn't occur we would be utterly vacuous, know nothing at all,much less than a new born baby. Thus it is the most natural thingthat concepts arise.Unfortunately, though, throughout samasara we have given theseconcepts special staus that they don't deserve, namely we think theyexist. This mistaken notion means that we will do all sorts of evilto protect these illusionary figments such as self. (endSo how do the details of the Abhidhamma and commentaries help

http://www.abhidhamma.org/

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by tiltbillings » Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:34 am

robertk wrote:The colours are real (but arising and passingaway rapidly) the computer screen is not real

So one set of condition "things" is real, but another is not. What is meant by "real?"

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.

SN I, 38.

 

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.

People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by robertk » Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:57 am

here is a conversation in poland last year which might be useful

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastu ... age/131573

(Than Acharn sujin in Poland, 12th, pm-A, 14m30)

 

- 2 -

 

Ann: She asks: <In one discourse Ajahn Sujin said, <...>, how to cling less

<...> not to give in to the attachment, I don't understand.>

 

TA: Usually people don't want to understand at all, just want to (know) how, are

they Buddhist? because they don't want to understand.

Jon: Sometimes they want to understand, but they see understanding as a way of

reaching a certain... 'fringe benefit'.

 

TA: but how?

 

Jon: by self

 

TA: (does) the word 'how' indicate understanding, or theory, or what? just

wanting to get, that's all;

 

J: wanting to know a method;

 

TA: would you like to understand or to know how?

 

J: understanding's better.;

 

TA: otherwise we might not be able to answer the question she's just (asked),

that way - just to show how.

 

A: <How to study (Dhamma) in a moment of attachment? to food for example. And

you explained again that the answer is 'understanding',<...>, and some of the

conditions for understanding are hearing the true Dhamma and considering it,

discussing it >

 

TA: - until it's her own understanding

 

J: There isn't an answer, to the question 'How can I develop understanding when

there is craving for food?'

 

TA: Who can tell her how? That's why we talk about arammana (object) - food is

arammana, at moment of seeing it - craving for food, food is the arammana; not

understanding what arammana is, so how can there be no craving when there's no

understanding.

 

A: There can't, but I guess ... when there is no understanding the next logical

question ...

 

TA: Don't you want to know what craving is? and no one can stop its arising;

just the self trying not to have it.

 

A: When people who are just beginning to study the Dhamma, to listen...

 

TA: That person should understand what Dhamma is; understanding one word at a

time is the best thing.

 

A: I'm thinking about this in the context of people who ask, <...>, when someone

asks and shows an interest in the Dhamma.

 

TA: But there are many people who show interest in Dhamma, like wanting to know

or to understand; wanting to know what Dhamma is or don't want to know what

Dhamma is, just want to know, whatever they like to know, like craving for food.

 

A: I don't think they know.

 

TA: Tell me how to be happy, see, who can tell? tell me that you don't have

attachment, who can do?

 

A: I think she would like to know how to develop understanding.

 

TA: Of now, or what? not of seeing; whatever appears, does she want to

understand (that)? Maybe she'd say "no, I want to understand how to be happy".

 

A: <... This is quite new to me, to develop understanding by intellectual

understanding, since Goenka always told me to do the contrary.>

 

TA: Not Buddha.

 

Lukas: <...> you always talk about the Dhamma, the Dhamma, but this is not yet

understood at all, and my point is that even if there is thinking like this, in

my case like even if it's not dhamma but just a story that thinks of 'this is

anatta, dukkha, anicca', and isn't it the way to develop more understanding?

 

TA: What thinks?

 

L: Vitakka.

 

TA: Or, dhamma; no one thinks, anytime that thinking arises there can be the

understanding of that moment which thinks, that is not that which sees - all

comes to anattaness, realities; because sometimes one thinks "ok, seeing is no

me, but thinking is me, I (think)".

 

L: But it's a long way; it's like one moment of understanding and then many

moments of ignorance <...>

 

TA: Yes, so you understand what is meant by khanti (patience), viriya (effort),

sacca (truth), adhitthana (resolution, four of the ten perfections)...

 

L: Yes, little by little, by I'd like to understand more than khanti.

 

TA: 'I'? 

; can you understand everything, in a day, or two days, or two

years, or twenty years?

It seems like that's not so difficult to understand, but actually the more you

know the more you can see the subtlety of reality - it's beyond expectation,

nobody can think about the moment when it arises and falls away, just know that

whatever appears now arises and falls away, that's all and that's not enough,

because it's only thinking about that but not the direct experience of it; when

one knows that it is true, shouldn't one follows it until it can be moment of

penetration, penetrating the truth, with understanding

 

L: <...> I appreciate your teaching so much because it's so natural, <...>, just

read and listen and the mind finds its own way by different moments, even if

it's very slow; but some people have their particular way of developing, <...>

and observe what happens in daily life, what do you think about this?

 

TA: Who is doing this?

 

L: A self.

 

TA: Ok, so that is not the way to eradicate the idea of self.

 

L: But maybe by way of self ...

 

TA: No, never, the way of self is avijja, not understanding, ignorance;

otherwise there is no self, if there is no ignorance.

Where is ignorance now? Whenever there is no right understanding, whenever

akusala citta arises, there is a clinging to the idea of I or self, and vijja is

the opposite of ignorance.

Can anyone show a way to get rid of ignorance, a shortcut, a method? when it's

method it's ignorance.

 

J: If we choose...

 

TA: Actually, lobha chooses.

 

J: But if we choose, for example, visible object, is it in fact visible object?

or is it just an idea...

 

TA: And how can you understand visible object as not self? - uncontrollable, how

come to appear to this moment.

 

J: I suppose the idea is that by choosing to observe visible object, you see

that ...

 

TA: Ok, observe - in what way, to understand it? it's like this, just like this;

and what's the way to observe? open you eyes, or what?:-)

 

L: It's like trying so much.

 

TA: Is cetana (intention) one of the eightfold (factors of the) path?

 

L: No. But Ajahn, people usually want some particular way...

 

TA: People, not me; I can't do anything for those people at all -

arammanupanissaya paccaya, pakatupanissaya paccaya, why do we read about all

these (conditions) - just to forget about it, and have the idea of choosing; it

doesn't help at all if one reads and there is the idea of selecting, choosing:

to understand this, not that.

Sotapanna eradicates wrong view completely, from everything: thinking, liking,

attachment, aversion - whatever it is it's conditioned.

http://www.abhidhamma.org/

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 11:55 PM

 tiltbillings » Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:56 am

L: <...> I appreciate your teaching so much because it's so natural, <...>, just

read and listen and the mind finds its own way by different moments, even if

it's very slow; but some people have their particular way of developing, <...>

and observe what happens in daily life, what do you think about this?

 

TA: Who is doing this?

 

L: A self.

 

TA: Ok, so that is not the way to eradicate the idea of self.

 

L: But maybe by way of self ...

 

TA: No, never, the way of self is avijja, not understanding, ignorance;

otherwise there is no self, if there is no ignorance.

Where is ignorance now? Whenever there is no right understanding, whenever

akusala citta arises, there is a clinging to the idea of I or self, and vijja is

the opposite of ignorance.

Can anyone show a way to get rid of ignorance, a shortcut, a method? when it's

method it's ignorance.

 

J: If we choose...

 

TA: Actually, lobha chooses.

I would like to see sutta support for this.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.

SN I, 38.

 

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.

People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by robertk » Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:05 am

thanks for your questions Tilt.

i am in japan this week but will be in bangkok from the 17th and have more time to devote. 

I will try to give some replies in the meantime when I can.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by tiltbillings » Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:09 am

robertk wrote:thanks for your questions Tilt.

i am in japan this week but will be in bangkok from the 17th and have more time to devote. 

I will try to give some replies in the meantime when I can.

It should be quite interesting, indeed.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.

SN I, 38.

 

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.

People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by ancientbuddhism » Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:12 pm

tiltbillings wrote:…Intellectual knowledge definitely has a role to play, but it is a subservient role.

 

This is key to Khun Sujin’s misunderstanding of the Dhamma. The schedules of analysis of paṭiccasamuppāda, which find expression through the schedules of pañcakkhandha, dhammā, dhātu etc. intrinsic to sammādiṭṭhi, are intended to work in tandem with the contemplative methods of sammāsati and sammāsamādhi. The former is unpacked for our understanding through the latter.

Let the meaning choose the word, and not the other way around.

– George Orwell

 

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

 

Library

 

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 11:56 PM

 tiltbillings » Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:34 pm

ancientbuddhism wrote:

tiltbillings wrote:…Intellectual knowledge definitely has a role to play, but it is a subservient role.

 

This is key to Khun Sujin’s misunderstanding of the Dhamma. The schedules of analysis of paṭiccasamuppāda, which find expression through the schedules of pañcakkhandha, dhammā, dhātu etc. intrinsic to sammādiṭṭhi, are intended to work in tandem with the contemplative methods of sammāsati and sammāsamādhi. The former is unpacked for our understanding through the latter.

Yes. And the Sujin method dismisses any attempt at cultivating "the contemplatives methods of sammāsati and sammāsamādhi" as being hopelessly and mistakenly driven by self-concept and lobha, which is a blatant and wholesale dismissal of all other forms of Dhamma practice other than what Sujin teaches. This dismissal is not a side comment by Sujin's overly enthusiastic followers. It is, rather, a we-have-it-right-everyone-else-has-it-wrong sectarianism that is very much part of the method Sujin teaches, coming directly from Sujin herself, as we can see in the directly above by robertk.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.

SN I, 38.

 

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.

People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by robertk » Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:40 am

ancientbuddhism wrote:

tiltbillings wrote:…Intellectual knowledge definitely has a role to play, but it is a subservient role.

 

This is key to Khun Sujin’s misunderstanding of the Dhamma. The schedules of analysis of paṭiccasamuppāda, which find expression through the schedules of pañcakkhandha, dhammā, dhātu etc. intrinsic to sammādiṭṭhi, are intended to work in tandem with the contemplative methods of sammāsati and sammāsamādhi. The former is unpacked for our understanding through the latter.

 

When there is understanding of Dhamma - whether one is istting, standing, walking or talking there is also sammasati and sammasamadhi.

Th eone who reveres the Dhamma will more and more see how deep and profound it is : and how beneficial it is to listen and contemplate Dhamma.

Sn 3.12 

PTS: Sn 724-765 

Dvayatanupassana Sutta

Now on that occasion — the Uposatha day of the fifteenth, the full-moon night — the Blessed One was sitting in the open air surrounded by the community of monks. Surveying the silent community of monks, he addressed them: "Monks, if there are any who ask, 'Your listening to teachings that are skillful, noble, leading onward, going to self-awakening is a prerequisite for what?' 

 

they should be told, 'For the sake of knowing qualities of dualities as they actually are.' 'What duality are you speaking about?' 'This is stress. This is the origination of stress': this is one contemplation. 'This is the cessation of stress. This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress': this is a second contemplation. For a monk rightly contemplating this duality in this way — heedful, ardent, & resolute — one of two fruits can be expected: either gnosis right here & now, or — if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance — non-return."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

 

 

And while listening and considering there can be deeper Samadhi of the correct type growing

When, Bhikkhus, a Noble Disciple listens carefully to the Dhamma,

alert with keen ears,

attending to it as a matter of crucial concern, as something of vital

importance, directing

his entire mind to it, in that very moment the Five Mental Hindrances

are absent in him.

On that occasion the Seven Links to Awakening develop towards

complete fulfilment...>

Source (edited extract):

The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya.

Book [V: 95-6] section 46: The Links. 38: Unhindered

 

This all takes a great deal of effort, but it is only useful if it is the right effort..

:

One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort.

One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness.

Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right view.

 

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

http://www.abhidhamma.org/

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by tiltbillings » Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:50 am

robertk wrote:

ancientbuddhism wrote:

tiltbillings wrote:…Intellectual knowledge definitely has a role to play, but it is a subservient role.

 

This is key to Khun Sujin’s misunderstanding of the Dhamma. The schedules of analysis of paṭiccasamuppāda, which find expression through the schedules of pañcakkhandha, dhammā, dhātu etc. intrinsic to sammādiṭṭhi, are intended to work in tandem with the contemplative methods of sammāsati and sammāsamādhi. The former is unpacked for our understanding through the latter.

 

When there is understanding of Dhamma - whether one is istting, standing, walking or talking there is also sammasati and sammasamadhi.

Th eone who reveres the Dhamma will more and more see how deep and profound it is : and how beneficial it is to listen and contemplate Dhamma.

And the Buddha neatly outlined a path of practice, a path of doing, that is far more than a mere intellectual understanding and a thinking about the Dhamma.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.

SN I, 38.

 

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.

People live in one another’s shelter.

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#334 Virgo

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 11:56 PM

 tiltbillings » Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:55 am

robertk wrote:This all takes a great deal of effort, but it is only useful if it is the right effort..

:

One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort.

One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness.

Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right view.

 

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Indeed, a great deal of effort, which is exemplified, in the suttas, by a disciplined meditation practice, keeping the precepts, and actively following the rest of the Eightfold Path.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.

SN I, 38.

 

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.

People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by tiltbillings » Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:56 am

And to repeat:

 

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=15952&p=255258#p252376

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.

SN I, 38.

 

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.

People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by robertk » Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:06 pm

tiltbillings wrote:It seems, looking at how the followers of the Sujin method talk about their practice, that the Sujin method values what would be characterized as an accumulation of knowledge.

 

that depends, for some poeople it may be that way, for others it can go deeper. In general Sujin is careful to stress that Abhidhamma is here and now, not merely a subject in a book.

this is from a recored discussion in poland last year.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastu ... age/131618

(Than Acharn, in Poland, 14th, aam, 1m)

 

And another thing is <?Pali/Thai word?>: Dhamma discussion, listening to Dhamma

- being it all about leading to more and more understanding so that it can

eliminate unwholesomeness and selfishness; - in order to

understand Dhamma; 

 

because people today usually think that what they are reading is the

moment of studying Dhamma, but it's not, it's only studying *a subject on*

Dhamma, but not understanding what Dhamma is at all;

 

but now, since one knows

that at the time of the Buddha, he taught those who came to listen to him about

whatever appears, as reality, and that person can lead all those people who

considered and agreed whether seeing now is permanent or not, because a moment

of life, a moment in the circle of birth and death is this very moment -

 

each

moment forms up the whole samsara, not a single moment is out of it, otherwise

it wouldn't be samsara; so now at the moment of hearing a sound, when there's no

understanding it's passed with ignorance again, and attachment again,

unknowingly, because of the four aasava (accumulated defilements): kaama aasava

(of attachment to sensous objects), ditthi aasava (of wrong view), bhava aasava

(of being someone), and avijja aasava (of ignorance); 

 

we couldn't understand

this at all if the Buddha, after his enlightenment, didn't tell us about what

appears so very fast, because it seems like everything is there for awhile, like

the sun now, and the visible object, but actually it's so rapid - only one

moment of citta cannot be imagined, but since it arises, the characteristic, how

can one know about it, whether there is citta or not, because the succession of

the arising and falling away of citta appears as - it sees and then it hears,

especially these, letting one know that there is a reality which can experience

an object, otherwise the world would not be seen - no one (would) know about the

world of sight now, and the world of sound, because without the arising and

falling away of realities there would be nothing at all appearing - no

experiencing; so the most important thing now is that not knowing that what is

appearing, because that experience, the citta, it's now the faculty of

experiencing; that's why there are many words for citta, like pandara (that

which is clear): citta itself does not like or dislike - it just experience,

 

but

it cannot arise without cetasikas, so we come to the conditions, from the very

beginning, that nothing can arise without conditions; so at this moment of

seeing, citta is the faculty of experiencing, but there must be many factors for

its arising, so there are many factors arising with this moment of seeing,

 

 

unknowingly; the Buddha didn't enlighten from his seeing's accumulation; (not)

by just knowing the truth for himself, but to share it with the others; because

anyone who doesn't understand realities is living in a blind world, not

understanding, just live and die, that's all; but in reality these are different

dhatus, citta is one dhatu, cetasikas are dhatus, everything is its own dhatu;

 

 

so now nobody know about the seven cetasikas which arise with this citta, why?

because even that which experiences is unknown as a reality - no self, no one

there; so by developing understanding, reading more and consider what the book

tells about now, this moment, we can condition right understanding from moment

to moment, to understand each reality more deeply; to see, 

 

right now, it's

agreed that seeing sees and hearing hears, but that's only the idea, the

intellectual understanding from the one who has directly penetrated the truth of

this, and that can be developed too, for those who really know and understand

what is meant by reality or Dhamma.

 

 

 

TA: What is the first one? (of the blessings, in the Mangala Sutta)

, the reason to see the value of kusala

and the dangers of akusala; everything is a bit of accumulations, from aeons and

aeons before, that's why today there's one taken for Lukas, and what people take

for this or that person, but in reality they're all dhatus (elements), and when

you talk about dhatus - nobody can do anything to fire, or earth, or wind or

anything, because there are conditions for their arising, everything has

conditions for its arising; so if we don't know that association with wrong

persons is so dangerous, we might run into that danger by associating more and

more; that's why (the) one thing that one can associate with the wrong ones is

to help or to assist (them), not to follow their idea - just for the sake of

helping that person to be good, to have right understanding, but not to follow

that wrong understanding,

http://www.abhidhamma.org/

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 11:59 PM

 robertk » Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:16 pm

tiltbillings wrote:

robertk wrote:The colours are real (but arising and passingaway rapidly) the computer screen is not real

So one set of condition "things" is real, but another is not. What is meant by "real?"

In the visuddhimagga n

ote from the subcommentary explains Viii n. 68

In such passages as “Dhammas that are concepts (Dhs p.1, 1308) even a non-entity (abhavaa) is thus called a “dhamma” since it is borne (dhaariiyati) and affirmed (avadhaariiyatti) by knowledge. That kind of dhamma is excluded by his saying “Dhammas (means) individual essences”. The act of becoming (bhavana), which constitutes existingness (vijjamaanataa) in the ultimate sense, is essence (bhaava); it is with essence (saha bhaavena), thus it is an individual essence (sabhaava); the meaning is that it is possible (labbhamaanaruupa) in the true sense, in the ultimate sense. For these are called “dhammas (bearers)” because they bear (dhaarana) their own individual essences (sabhaava), and they are called “individual essences” in the sense already explained (Pm.282

)

 

thus dhammas like hardness or boredom or pleasant feeling are real in the ultimate sense but concepts like Person or computer are not real.

in the case of say the computer the trillions of kalapas that make up what we call a computer are real, but they arise and pass away, and are immediately replaced countless times in a split second.

the concept, like computer is a shadow of the actual elements.

 

so imho it is fundamental, the start even, (and end) to learn to see the nature of realities and how different concepts and realities are.

The commentary to the UDANA ( translation by Peter Masefield from PTS) (p71,vol1, enlightenment chapter)

 

QUOTE

"it is ignorance since it causes beings to dart among becomings and so on within samsara.., it is ignorance since it darts among those things which do not actually exist (i.e. men, women] and since it does not dart among those things that do exist [i.e. it cannot understand the khandas, paramattha dhammas]

http://www.abhidhamma.org/

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by robertk » Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:43 pm

tiltbillings wrote:

L: <...> I appreciate your teaching so much because it's so natural, <...>, just

read and listen and the mind finds its own way by different moments, even if

it's very slow; but some people have their particular way of developing, <...>

and observe what happens in daily life, what do you think about this?

 

TA: Who is doing this?

 

L: A self.

 

TA: Ok, so that is not the way to eradicate the idea of self.

 

L: But maybe by way of self ...

 

TA: No, never, the way of self is avijja, not understanding, ignorance;

otherwise there is no self, if there is no ignorance.

Where is ignorance now? Whenever there is no right understanding, whenever

akusala citta arises, there is a clinging to the idea of I or self, and vijja is

the opposite of ignorance.

Can anyone show a way to get rid of ignorance, a shortcut, a method? when it's

method it's ignorance.

 

J: If we choose...

 

TA: Actually, lobha chooses.

I would like to see sutta support for this.

I guess you are asking for evidence that satipatthana is not a mthod or technique?

 

as i cited from the satipatthana sutta earlier in this thread

 

 

 

 

 

in defecating and in urinating, is a person practising clear comprehension(satisampajanna); in walking, in standing (in a place), in sitting (in some position), in sleeping, in waking, in speaking and in keeping silence, is a person practising clear comprehension.

 

Insight can arise while walking, while standing, while looking straight ahead, while looking to the back, while defacating and while urinating. And most certainly it can arise while sitting.

 

But it is not a method to follow, ot is rather showing than whatever is arising now can be understood, if there are enough conditions to understand.

 

Note I am referring here to vipassana: some samatha is aided by seclusion and by specific posture etc. as I mentioned above.

http://www.abhidhamma.org/

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by Alex123 » Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:14 pm

robertk wrote:Please check out the quotes from the Satipatthana sutta I supplied earlier in this thread.

 

in defecating and in urinating, is a person practising clear comprehension(satisampajanna); in walking, in standing (in a place), in sitting (in some position), in sleeping, in waking, in speaking and in keeping silence, is a person practising clear comprehension.

 

Insight can arise while walking, while standing, while looking straight ahead, while looking to the back, while defacating and while urinating. And most certainly it can arise while sitting.

 

But it is not a method to follow, ot is rather shoing than whatever is arising now can be understood, if there are enough conditions to understand.

 

Note I am referring here to vipassana: some samatha is aided by seclusion and by specific posture etc. as I mentioned above.

 

 

 

But one has to to act intentionally to have clear comprehension while: "walking, standing, looking straight ahead, defecating, etc...

You are correct when you say "But it is not a method to follow", because "insight can arise while..." is different from causes for the insight. 

 

Just because someone got insight while X, it doesn't mean that X caused the insight. That person could have formally been meditating 20 hours a day 7 days a week for 20 years until insight arose at a mundane moment. The mundane activity that person could have been doing might have nothing to do with the cause for arisen insight.

If life is imperfect (dukkha), then it is ignorant to try to change it to perfection (sukha). Accept what is!

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#336 Virgo

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 12:00 AM

 tiltbillings » Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:34 am

Alex123 wrote:

robertk wrote:Please check out the quotes from the Satipatthana sutta I supplied earlier in this thread.

 

in defecating and in urinating, is a person practising clear comprehension(satisampajanna); in walking, in standing (in a place), in sitting (in some position), in sleeping, in waking, in speaking and in keeping silence, is a person practising clear comprehension.

 

Insight can arise while walking, while standing, while looking straight ahead, while looking to the back, while defacating and while urinating. And most certainly it can arise while sitting.

 

But it is not a method to follow, ot is rather shoing than whatever is arising now can be understood, if there are enough conditions to understand.

 

Note I am referring here to vipassana: some samatha is aided by seclusion and by specific posture etc. as I mentioned above.

 

 

 

But one has to to act intentionally to have clear comprehension while: "walking, standing, looking straight ahead, defecating, etc...

You are correct when you say "But it is not a method to follow", because "insight can arise while..." is different from causes for the insight. 

 

Just because someone got insight while X, it doesn't mean that X caused the insight. That person could have formally been meditating 20 hours a day 7 days a week for 20 years until insight arose at a mundane moment. The mundane activity that person could have been doing might have nothing to do with the cause for arisen insight.

One of the interesting texts is the accounting of Ananda's awakening:

 

Meanwhile the time came when the venerable Ananda thought: "The meeting is tomorrow. It is not seemly for me to go to the meeting place as a mere learner." He spent much of the night in contemplation of the body. When the night was near dawn, he thought "I shall lie down"; but he kept mindful of the body. Before his head touched the pillow and after his feet left the ground, his heart was in this interval liberated from taints through not clinging. So the venerable Ananda went to the assembly as an Arahant.

Vin. Cv. Kh. 11

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.

SN I, 38.

 

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.

People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by tiltbillings » Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:54 am

robertk wrote:

tiltbillings wrote:

L: <...> I appreciate your teaching so much because it's so natural, <...>, just

read and listen and the mind finds its own way by different moments, even if

it's very slow; but some people have their particular way of developing, <...>

and observe what happens in daily life, what do you think about this?

 

TA: Who is doing this?

 

L: A self.

 

TA: Ok, so that is not the way to eradicate the idea of self.

 

L: But maybe by way of self ...

 

TA: No, never, the way of self is avijja, not understanding, ignorance;

otherwise there is no self, if there is no ignorance.

Where is ignorance now? Whenever there is no right understanding, whenever

akusala citta arises, there is a clinging to the idea of I or self, and vijja is

the opposite of ignorance.

Can anyone show a way to get rid of ignorance, a shortcut, a method? when it's

method it's ignorance.

 

J: If we choose...

 

TA: Actually, lobha chooses.

I would like to see sutta support for this.

I guess you are asking for evidence that satipatthana is not a mthod or technique?

 

as i cited from the satipatthana sutta earlier in this thread

 

in defecating and in urinating, is a person practising clear comprehension(satisampajanna); in walking, in standing (in a place), in sitting (in some position), in sleeping, in waking, in speaking and in keeping silence, is a person practising clear comprehension.

 

Insight can arise while walking, while standing, while looking straight ahead, while looking to the back, while defacating and while urinating. And most certainly it can arise while sitting.

 

But it is not a method to follow, ot is rather showing than whatever is arising now can be understood, if there are enough conditions to understand.

 

Note I am referring here to vipassana: some samatha is aided by seclusion and by specific posture etc. as I mentioned above.

Interestingly, there is no sutta support (or any real support) given here for Sujin's claim: "Actually, lobha chooses." I would like to see sutta support for this astounding claim, a claim which has been used in this thread to dismiss meditation practice as having any validity, and also we see that this dismissal comes directly from Sujin herself.

 

Insight can arise while walking, while standing, while looking straight ahead, while looking to the back, while defacating and while urinating. And most certainly it can arise while sitting.

 

But it is not a method to follow, ot is rather showing than whatever is arising now can be understood, if there are enough conditions to understand.

And here is the point: By doing a disciplined practice of meditation, as in of the Burmese vipassana traditions or in the Ajahn Chah style or any number of others, the conditions for the arising of insight are cultivated, and this has, of course, a definite carry over into one's activities of daily life. These activities themselves become part of the practice.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.

SN I, 38.

 

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.

People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by tiltbillings » Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:46 am

robertk wrote:thus dhammas like hardness or boredom or pleasant feeling are real in the ultimate sense but concepts like Person or computer are not real.

in the case of say the computer the trillions of kalapas that make up what we call a computer are real, but they arise and pass away, and are immediately replaced countless times in a split second.

the concept, like computer is a shadow of the actual elements.

The Buddhist version of Plato's Cave.

 

The problem is that "thus dhammas like hardness or boredom or pleasant feeling are real in the ultimate sense but concepts like Person or computer are not real" has no grounding in this way in the suttas, and I rather seriously doubt that it can be tied to the actual Abhidhamma Pitaka. Reflecting that historical level of thought:

 

Prof. Dr. Y. Karunadasa, THE DHAMMA THEORY, page 9 http://www.zeh-verlag.de/download/dhammatheory.pdf wrote:In the Pali tradition it is only for the sake of definition and description that each dhamma is postulated as if it were a separate entity; but in reality it is by no means a solitary phenomenon having an existence of its own. . . . If this Abhidhammic view of existence, as seen from its doctrine of dhammas, cannot be interpreted as a radical pluralism, neither can it be interpreted as an out-and-out monism. For what are called dhammas -- the component factors of the universe, both within us and outside us -- are not fractions of an absolute unity but a multiplicity of co-ordinate factors. They are not reducible to, nor do they emerge from, a single reality, the fundamental postulate of monistic metaphysics. If they are to be interpreted as phenomena, this should be done with the proviso that they are phenomena with no corresponding noumena, no hidden underlying ground. For they are not manifestations of some mysterious metaphysical substratum, but processes taking place due to the interplay of a multitude of conditions.

 

Nyanaponika quotes a sub-commentary to an Abhidhamma text: "There is no other thing than the quality borne by it." (na ca dhaariyamma-sabhaavaa an~n~o dhammo naama atthi). Abhidhamma Studies, page 40. Which is to say: We simpy cannot say that 'a dharma is... (a predicate follows)', because a dharma, in fact, 'is' no thing, yet [it is] a term denoting (not being) a certain relation or type of relation to thought, consciousness or mind. That is, dharma is not a concept in the accepted terminological sense of the latter, but a purely relational notion. -- Piatigorsky, THE BUDDHIST PHILOSOPHY OF THOUGHT, page 181.

 

Nyanaponika ABHIDHAMMA STUDIES, page 41 BPS; page 42 Wisdom wrote:By arranging the mental factors in relational groups a subordinate synthetical element has been introduced into the mainly analytical Dhammasangani. By so doing, the danger inherent in purely analytical methods is avoided. This danger consists in erroneously taking for genuine separate entities the “parts” resulting from analysis, instead of restricting their use to sound practical method with the purpose of classifying and dissolving composite events wrongly conceived as unities. Up to the present time it has been a regular occurrence in the history of physics, metaphysics, and psychology that when the “whole” has been successfully dissolved by analysis, the resultant “parts” themselves come in turn to be regarded as little “wholes.”

 

Piatigorsky (In his study of the Pitaka Abhidhamma texts, THE BUDDHIST PHILOSOPHY OF THOUGHT, p 182) puts it: “From the point of view of consciousness, it can be said that, when consciousness is conscious of one’s mind, thought, or consciousness directed to their objects, then it is ‘being conscious of’ that may be named ‘a state of consciousness’ or a dharma.”

 

Piatigorsky (THE BUDDHIST PHILOSOPHY OF THOUGHT, p 146) explains: “the meaning of each abhidhammic term [dhamma] consists (or is the sum) of all its positional meanings and of all positional meanings of its connotations.”

 

robertk wrote:"thus dhammas like hardness or boredom or pleasant feeling are real in the ultimate sense but concepts like Person or computer are not real"

The dhammas of hardness or boredom are no more real or no less real than are the experience of self/person or computer. Dhammas are ways of talking about on experience. 

 

so imho it is fundamental, the start even, (and end) to learn to see the nature of realities and how different concepts and realities are.

The commentary to the UDANA ( translation by Peter Masefield from PTS) (p71,vol1, enlightenment chapter)

 

QUOTE

"it is ignorance since it causes beings to dart among becomings and so on within samsara.., it is ignorance since it darts among those things which do not actually exist (i.e. men, women] and since it does not dart among those things that do exist [i.e. it cannot understand the khandas, paramattha dhammas]

"Ultimate dhammas," being dependently arisen processes, are empty of any self-ness and have no more actual reality than do any others. As I said, Dhammas are ways of talking about on experience.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.

SN I, 38.

 

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People live in one another’s shelter.

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#337 Virgo

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 12:01 AM

 robertk » Sat Aug 10, 2013 7:46 am

Pariyatti as the Root of the Sāsanā

 

(From the Atthakathā to Anguttara Nikāya, Ekanipāta, Dutiyapamādādivagga, 42nd sutta)

 

 

 

 

And in that place [Maṇḍalārāma Monastery in Kallagāma] there arose a discussion among the elders as to whether the root of the Dispensation consisted in practice (paṭipatti) or in study of the Teaching (pariyatti). Those elders who were wearers of rag-robes said, “practice is the root,” and those elders who were teachers of Dhamma said, “study is the root.”

 

Then some elders said, “we cannot decide between your two opinions merely on the basis of your assertions. Support them by quoting a saying spoken by the Conqueror.”

 

“It will be no trouble to quote a saying,” replied both sides. Then the elders who were wearers of rag-robes quoted these passages:

 

“Subhadda, if bhikkhus in this very Dispensation were to live rightly, the world would not be empty of arahants.”

 

“Your majesty, the Teacher’s Dispensation is rooted in practice and has practice as its pith. While practice is maintained, the Dispensation lasts.”

 

After listening to these sayings, the elders who were teachers of Dhamma then quoted this saying as proof of their own claim:

 

“For as long the Suttantas endure, for as long as the Vinaya is taught,

For just that long will there be light, like that after the sun has risen.

But when the Suttantas are no more, and when the Vinaya is forgotten,

There will be darkness in the world, like that after the sun has set.

While the Suttantas are protected, then is practice protected too;

A sage, being grounded in practice, fails not to reach peace from the bonds.”

 

When this saying was quoted, the elders who were wearers of rag-robes became silent and the speech of the teachers of Dhamma prevailed.

 

Neither among a hundred bulls, nor among a thousand, will even a single bull ensure the continuance of his line in the absence of a cow. Even so, neither among a hundred bhikkhus intent on insight, nor among a thousand, will even a single bhikkhu penetrate the noble path in the absence of pariyatti.

 

Marks are engraved in rock to show the location of buried treasure; for as long as those marks endure, the treasure is not reckoned as lost. Even so, for as long as pariyatti endures, the Teacher’s Dispensation is not reckoned to have disappeared.

(Manorathapūraṇī i. 92-3, translation by dhammanando

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by robertk » Sat Aug 10, 2013 7:47 am

why the Dhamma needs to be considered carefully

from sarha abbott

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastu ... age/121643

Here is a quote from the Paramatthadiipanii naama Udaana.t.thakathaa - The

Udaana Commentary; a discussion of the terms 'eva.m' and 'suta,m' used by

Aananda:

>

> "...And in proclaiming this utterance of eva.m, elucidating the paying of

methodical attention in the manner already stated, he elucidates the fact that

such things had been carefully considered by him in his mind; that they had been

well pierced by (right view). For the Dhamma of the texts, when carefully

considered in the mind after the manner of 'In this case it is morality that is

talked of, in this case concentration, in this case insight - to such an extent

are there sequential teachings here and so on, when pierced by thoroughly

investigating - after the manner of 'Such is form; to such extent there is form'

(cp DA 462 or D ii 35) and so forth - things formed and formless; spoken of in

this place and that, by way of (right) view either consisting of reflection

upon, and approval of, Dhamma accompanied by hearsay and the consideration of

reasons, or else reckoned as full understanding of the known, is one bringing

happiness and well-being to oneself and others. In proclaiming this utterance

suta.m, elucidating his link with hearing, he elucidates 'Abundant are the

things heard by me; learned by heart, verbally familiarised' (cp M i 213 etc.). 

For texts are (all) subject to application of the ear. In the complete

fulfillment of the meaning and formulation of the Dhamma as a result of its

being well proclaimed, he generates regard (concerning same), by saying that the

one not hearing, with due regard, Dhamma with its meaning and formulation

completely fulfilled becomes one completely excluded from its benefit, that

Dhamma is to be heard with care..."

>

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by robertk » Sat Aug 10, 2013 7:49 am

study in the present moment, study of the khandas

 

 

Sammohavinodanii:

 

QUOTE

2075. "...Anulomika.m khanti.m ('conformable acceptance') and so on are all synonyms for understanding. For that is in conformity since it conforms by showing non-opposition to the five reasons for the aforesaid sphere of work and so on. Likewise, it is in conformity since it conforms with behaviour beneficial to beings, it conforms to the Truth of the Path and it conforms owing to conforming to the highest meaning, nibbaana. And it accepts (khamati), bears, is able to see all these reasons, thus it is acceptance (khanti). 'It sees' is di.t.thi ('view'). 'It chooses' is ruci ('choice'). 'It perceives with the senses' is muti ('sensing'). 'It observes' is pekkho ('observance'). And all these things (dhamma) called the five aggregates on being studied (nijjhaayamaanaa) again and again in accordance with impermanence, suffering and no-self, accept (khamanti) that study (nijjhaana); thus it is dhammanijjhaanakkhanti ('acceptance of study things').

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#338 Virgo

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 12:02 AM

 Alex123 » Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:27 pm

RobertK,

 

Of course study is important. One studies first, then practices what one has learned. Obviously one needs to know what to practice.

 

 

As for why study monks won:

Someone needed to preserve the teaching for later generations. If all monks were reclusive ascetics who taught very little, if anything at all, then Buddhism would die out if one or few generations. This debate is NOT that only study without practice is required:

 

While the Suttantas are protected, then is practice protected too;

A sage, being grounded in practice, fails not to reach peace from the bonds.”

 

The monk's duties were not just for Arhatship, but also to preserve the teachings for later generations.

If life is imperfect (dukkha), then it is ignorant to try to change it to perfection (sukha). Accept what is!

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by robertk » Sat Aug 24, 2013 2:36 pm

this is a transcript that nina made of the discussion in Bangkok today,

it talks about study in theory and directly.

 

Saturday, Http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastu ... age/132675

 

 

part 1.

 

The Buddha’s teachings are about everything that appears now. Is it you who

sees? Seeing is seeing, it is dhamma. This truth can be directly experienced,

not by me, but by understanding. Is it possible to experience the arising and

falling away of seeing? Now now. Understanding has to begin by pariyatti

(intellectual understanding), then pa.tipatti (development of satipa.t.thaana)

and pativedha (realisation of the truth).

 

What is real is dhamma. We need the word abhidhamma, abhi, because it is very

subtle. One knows that seeing is not hearing. At the moment of seeing there is

no hearing. It is not enough to know that seeing is not permanent. Seeing cannot

be taken for self, it is conditioned to arise and fall away, before hearing can

arise.

 

Dhamma is abhidhamma, because it is very deep and subtle. Apart from abhidhamma

there is the word paramattha dhamma. No one can condition the arising of seeing,

it is beyond anyone’s control. Are you now studying abhidhamma, paramattha

dhamma, or just dhamma. They are the same. Whatever is real is dhamma, but sure,

it is subtle: abhidhamma. It takes time to study and really understand. Nobody

can change the characteristic of seeing into thinking, it is paramattha dhamma.

What dhammas are there now?

 

Answer: cold, hardness, feeling.

 

T.A.: At the moment of saying cold or hardness, is there any understanding of

their characteristics? What is the understanding of it? The characteristic of

non-self is not ready to appear yet. The experience of the actual seeing is not

now, while talking about it.

 

Remember, seeing is not self, but understanding is not yet of the degree that it

can experience it as not self. When the Buddha pointed out the reality of

seeing, the listeners paid attention to its characteristic. Nowadays it is

different. There are different degrees of understanding.

 

What is eyesense, cakkhu pasada?

 

Answer: A kind of ruupa caused by kamma.

 

T.A.: Who knows cakkhu pasada? What about pariyatti, pa.tipatti and pativedha?

What is it now? Usually one is forgetful all the time. Are you forgetful? What

are you forgetful of? You forget that there are only dhammas, no one there.

Dhamma is so subtle, it is abhidhamma.

 

What is seen? We are forgetful again. If one is not forgetful, what is seen?

There is no one there, only visible object. At this very moment, what is seen?

There can be a condition for understanding to develop. There is only one kind of

reality that can be seen.

 

Study means not just listening to words, but it is understanding the nature of

realities. We think a lot of shape and form, but there is no one there. Really

understanding of what we are talking about is the development from pariyatti to

pa.tipatti. Who knows that that what is seen is just visible object, no people?

When there is no thinking there is no one. Is this abhidhamma? It is very deep

and subtle, letting go of people in this room.

 

What kind of citta is there at the moment of thinking of a cat? That moment is

not you, it is thinking. Thinking is real, not self.

 

Sukin: There is nothing wrong with thinking, thinking is not the problem, but

wrong view. What has arisen has already fallen away, we do not try to stop

thinking.

 

T.A.: It (thinking) is still you, not a dhamma. We are always forgetful. Who can

know what dhamma is without studying?

 

**********

 

Nina.

 

 

 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by clw_uk » Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:18 pm

robertk wrote:HI coyote, 

not sure I understand your question about common parlance?

 

One important issue I want to bring out is that the idea expressed in the opening post that it is by 'paying attention to our experiences' that wisdom develops, seems not really supported by sutta.

 

 

Well you can read the words anicca, dukkha and anatta and understand them intellectually, but its only when you experience them directly do you understand them

 

And we experience them by "paying attention to our experiences"

 

So wisdom develops via attention to experience

"Some have claimed to have discovered the truth, others have asserted that it cannot be apprehended, while others again go on inquiring Sextus Empiricus

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#339 Virgo

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 07:55 PM

by robertk » Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:31 am

A transcript I found
Questioner: How should one be aware? I know that sati is aware, but how?

Should there be profound consideration or a more superficial consideration of

the three general characteristics of impermanence, dukkha and anatta? Or

should there be awareness only of softness and hardness? I have understood

what you taught about the practice, I listened for two or three years. However,

I cannot practise. I learnt about nama and rupa, but what are they? How

should I be aware of them? I feel confused about awareness of dhammas at the

present moment. There must be a special method for this. A special method is

important. Should there be profound awareness or awareness which is more

superficial, awareness for a long time or for a short time? But I take everything

for self. 



Sujin: This way of acting leads to confusion. You may try to regulate sati, to

have profound awareness or a more superficial awareness, to have a great deal

of it or only a little, but, as regards the development of panna there is no

special method or technique. The development of panna begins with listening to

the Dhamma, and studying the realities sati can be aware of, so that

understanding can grow. These are conditions for the arising of sati that is

directly aware of the characteristics of nama and rupa as they naturally appear.

Since the nama and rupa that appear are real, panna can come to know their

true nature.



You should not try to regulate sati and try to make it strong or to make it

decrease so that it is weak, or to make it superficial. If one acts in that way one

clings to the concept of self and does not investigate and study the

characteristics of the dhammas that appear. What are the realities that appear?

A person who is not forgetful of realities can be aware of them as they naturally

appear, he is directly aware of their characteristics. He does not try to make sati

focus on an object so that it could consider that object more deeply, over and

over again. Sati arises and falls away, and then there may be again

forgetfulness, or sati may be aware again of another object. Thus, we can see

that satipatthana is anatta. People who understand that all realities, including

satipatthana, are anatta, will not be confused. If someone clings to the concept

of self, he is inclined to regulate and direct sati, but he does not know the right

way. If one’s practice is not natural, it is complicated and creates confusion. If

awareness is natural, if it studies and considers the realities that appear, there will

be understanding, no confusion.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by robertk » Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:32 am

Questioner: What is the difference between the practice that is natural and

the practice that is unnatural?



Sujin: At this moment you are sitting in a natural way and you may be aware

of realities which appear, such as softness or hardness, presenting themselves

through the bodysense, or visible object appearing through the eyesense. All

these dhammas appear naturally. However, someone’s practice is unnatural if

he believes, while he develops satipatthana, that he should sit cross-legged, in

the lotus position, and that he should concentrate on specific realities. There is 

desire when a person selects realities that have not arisen yet as objects of

awareness. He neglects to be aware of realities that appear already, such as

seeing, hearing, visible object, sound, odour, flavour, cold, heat, softness or

hardness. Even if there is only a slight amount of wrong understanding, it

conditions clinging and this hides the truth. In that case panna cannot arise and

know the dhammas appearing at that moment. 



People who develop satipatthana should know precisely the difference between

the moment of forgetfulness, when there is no sati, and the moment when

there is sati. Otherwise satipatthana cannot be developed. If one is usually 

forgetful one is bound to be forgetful again. Someone may wish to select an

object in order to concentrate on it, but this is not the way to develop

satipatthana. We should have right understanding of the moment when there is

forgetfulness, no sati, that is, when we do not know the characteristics of 

realities appearing in daily life, such as seeing or hearing. When there is sati, one

can consider, study and understand the dhammas appearing through the six

doors. When someone selects a particular object in order to focus on it, he will

not know that sati is non-self. When there is sati it can be aware of realities that

naturally appear. When odour appears there can be awareness of odour that

presents itself through the nose. It can be known as only a type of reality

that arises, which appears and then disappears. Or the nama which experiences

odour can be understood as only a type of reality that presents itself. After it

has experienced odour, it falls away. It is not a being, a person or self.

 

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 07:56 PM

by tiltbillings » Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:59 am

robertk wrote:. . . However, someone’s practice is unnatural if he believes, while he develops satipatthana, that he should sit cross-legged, in the lotus position, and that he should concentrate on specific realities. There is desire when a person selects realities that have not arisen yet as objects of awareness. He neglects to be aware of realities that appear already, such as seeing, hearing, visible object, sound, odour, flavour, cold, heat, softness or hardness. Even if there is only a slight amount of wrong understanding, it conditions clinging and this hides the truth. In that case panna cannot arise and know the dhammas appearing at that moment. . . . .

As we have seen graphically illustrated above, Sujin really does not understand either theoretically or practically meditation practice. Sad that she feels this need to disparage meditation practice in this strawman manner.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

 

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Re: The causes for wisdom

by robertk » Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:30 pm

Questioner: I do not know yet the characteristic of satipatthana. When I listen

intently to your lecture, I understand the subject matter, the theory. There is

also awareness while I have theoretical understanding, but I do not consider

nama and rupa at that moment. I am not sure whether that is satipatthana or

not.



Sujin: If we do not know that our life is only nama and rupa, we are bound to

take realities for self. We are full of the concept of self and this can only be

eradicated completely by satipatthana. Sati can be aware and begin to

investigate the characteristics of nama and rupa that appear. In the beginning,

when sati is aware, there cannot yet be clear understanding of the realities that

appear as nama and as rupa. The understanding may be so weak that it is

hardly noticeable. Understanding develops only gradually, it can eliminate

ignorance stage by stage; ignorance cannot be immediately eradicated. It is

just as in the case of the knifehandle someone holds each day and which wears

off only a little at a time.



We read in the Kindred Sayings (III, Middle Fifty, Ch V, § 101, Adze-handle)

that the Buddha, while he was in Savatthi, said to the monks that defilements

can be eradicated by realizing the arising and falling away of the five khandhas.

This cannot be achieved “by not knowing, by not seeing.” If someone would

just wish for the eradication of defilements and he would be neglectful of the

development of understanding, defilements cannot be eradicated. Only by

the development of understanding, defilements can gradually be eliminated.

We read:



Just as if, monks, when a carpenter or carpenter’s apprentice

looks upon his adze-handle

and sees thereon his thumb-mark and his finger-marks

he does not thereby know:

“Thus and thus much of my adze-handle has been worn away today,

thus much yesterday,

thus much at other times.”

But he knows the wearing away of it just by its wearing away.

Even so, monks, the monk who dwells attentive to self-training

has not this knowledge:

“Thus much and thus much of the asavas has been worn away today,

thus much yesterday,

and thus much at other times.”

But he knows the wearing away of them just by their wearing away.



Understanding has to be developed for an endlessly long time. Some people

dislike it that sati and panna develop only very gradually, but there is no other

way. If someone is impatient and tries to combine different ways of practice in

order to hasten the development of panna, he makes his life very complicated.