8 replies to this topic

[RobertK]

Every moment once it has passed has absolutely ceased according to the Theravada. However, this doesn't mean that it can't be known. If that was the case then we would be like newborn babies, only worse, and know nothing. Direct seeing should be distinguished from thinking about past events but it doesn't mean that direct seeing doesn't need sanna. Sanna arises with every citta and thus it arises also in cittas associated with panna. It is so complex how it all comes together, just for a moment, to understand. Here are some brief quotes:

Abhidhammattha sangaha (Anuruddha) translated as A comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma by Bhikkhu Bodhi:

Guide (note by Bodhi) p. 136

"although citta experiences objects, citta in turn can become an object. It should be noted that a citta in its immediacy cannot become an its own object, for the cognizer cannot cognize itself; but a citta in an individual mental continuum can experience earlier cittas in that same continuum as well as the cittas of other beings"

p. 137

"Mind-door cittas can also cognise an object belonging to any of the three periods of time- past present and future"

p. 138

"the Vibhavani tika explains: according to whether the cittas are sense sphere javanas, direct knowledge javanas , the remaining smile- producing javanas etc. For the sense sphere javanas...take objects of the three times[past, present, future] and timeless objects (nibbana and concepts]. The smile producing consciousness takes only objects of the three times[past, present, future]. The direct knowledge cittas take objects of the three times as well as the timeless"

p. 138

The door freed consciousness (ie. patisandhicitta, cuti citta and bhavanga citta ) "can be of six kinds: it can be any of the five sense objects, either past or present, or it can be a mental object"

best wishes

robert

[phil]

Hi Robert and all

" Every moment once it has passed has absolutely ceased according to the Theravada. However, this doesn't mean that it can't be known."

I think I have learned that although the object has fallen away, it is still kown as a reality (paramattha dhamma) when it is known by the following mind door process. For example, the rupa of visible object is still known as rupa by the following mind door process after it has fallen away rather than as concept. Do I have that right?

Thanks in advance.

Phil

[RobertK]

Dear Phil,
I think it is following mind-door processes, rather than just one process. Maybe Suan or Nina have something to add.
Robert

[RobertK]

http://www.lioncity....mp;#entry629008 by scott
Visuddhimagga, XIII, 111-114:

QUOTE
111. "...'Present' (paccapanna) is of three kinds, that is to say, present by moment, present by continuity, and present by extent. Herein, what has reached arising (uppaada), presence (.thitti), and dissolution (bhanga) is present by moment. What is included in one or two rounds of continuity is present by continuity.
112. "Herein, when someone goes to a well-lit place after sitting in the dark, an object is not clear at first; until it becomes clear, one or two rounds of continuity should be understood [to pass] meanwhile. And when he goes into an inner closet after going about in a well-lit place, a visible object is not immediately evident at first; until it becomes clear, one or two rounds of continuity should be understood [to pass] meanwhile. When he stands at a distance, although he sees the alterations (movements) of the hands of the washermen and the alterations (movements) of the striking of the gongs, drums, etc., yet he does not hear the sound at first...; until he hears it, one or two rounds of continuity should be understood [to pass] meanwhile. This, firstly, is according to the Majjhima reciters.
113. "The Sa"myutta reciters, however, say that there are two kinds of continuity, that is to say, material continuity and immaterial continuity: that a material continuity lasts as long as the [muddy] line of water touching the bank when one treads in the water takes to clear, as long as the heat of the body in one who has walked a certain extent takes to die down, as long as the blindness in one who has come from the sunshine into a does not depart, as long as when, after someone has been giving attention to his meditation subject in a room and then opens the shutters by day and looks out, the dazzling in his eyes does not die down; and that immaterial continuity consists in two or three rounds of impulsion. Both of these are [according to them] called 'present by continuity'.
114. "What is delimited by a single becoming (existence) is called present by extent, with reference to which it is said in the Bhaddekaratta Sutta: 'Friends, the mind and mental objects are both what is present. Consciousness is bound by desire and greed for what is present. Because consciousness is bound by desire and greed he delights in that. When he delights in that, then he is vanquished with respect to present states' (M.iii, 197).
And here 'present by continuity' is used in the Commentaries while 'present by extent' is used in the Suttas."


Visuddhimagga XIV, 187-191:

QUOTE
187. Herein, ...firstly, according to extent: in the case of single becoming of one [living being], previous rebirth linking is past, subsequent to death is future, between these two is present.
188. ...According to continuity: that [materiality] which has like or single origination by temperature and single origination by nutriment, though it occurs successively, is present. That which, previous to that, was of unlike origination by temperature and nutriment is past. That which is subsequent is future. That which is born of consciousness and has its origination in one cognitive series, in one impulsion, in one attainment, is present. Previous to that is past. Subsequent to that is future. There is no special classification into past continuity, etc., of that which has its origination in kamma, but its pastness, etc., should be understood according as it supports those which have their origination through temperature, nutriment, and consciousness.
189. ...According to period: any period among those such as one minute, morning, evening, day-and-night, etc., that occurs as a continuity, is called present. Previous to that is past. Subsequent is future.
190. ...According to moment: what is included in the trio of moments, [that is to say, arising, presence, and dissolution] beginning with arising is called present. At a time previous to that it is called future. At a time subsequent to that it is called past.
191: Furthermore, that whose functions of cause and condition have elapsed is past. That whose function of cause is finished and whose function of condition is unfinished is present. That which has not attained to either function is future. Or alternatively, the moment of the function is present. At a time previous to that it is future. At a time subsequent to that it is past.
And here only the explanations beginning with the moment are absolutely literal. The rest are in a figurative [or relative] sense."

[RobertK]

Visuddhimagga, XIII, 111-114:

QUOTE
111. "...'Present' (paccapanna) is of three kinds, that is to say, present by moment, present by continuity, and present by extent. Herein, what has reached arising (uppaada), presence (.thitti), and dissolution (bhanga) is present by moment. What is included in one or two rounds of continuity is present by continuity.
112. "Herein, when someone goes to a well-lit place after sitting in the dark, an object is not clear at first; until it becomes clear, one or two rounds of continuity should be understood [to pass] meanwhile. And when he goes into an inner closet after going about in a well-lit place, a visible object is not immediately evident at first; until it becomes clear, one or two rounds of continuity should be understood [to pass] meanwhile. When he stands at a distance, although he sees the alterations (movements) of the hands of the washermen and the alterations (movements) of the striking of the gongs, drums, etc., yet he does not hear the sound at first...; until he hears it, one or two rounds of continuity should be understood [to pass] meanwhile. This, firstly, is according to the Majjhima reciters.
113. "The Sa"myutta reciters, however, say that there are two kinds of continuity, that is to say, material continuity and immaterial continuity: that a material continuity lasts as long as the [muddy] line of water touching the bank when one treads in the water takes to clear, as long as the heat of the body in one who has walked a certain extent takes to die down, as long as the blindness in one who has come from the sunshine into a does not depart, as long as when, after someone has been giving attention to his meditation subject in a room and then opens the shutters by day and looks out, the dazzling in his eyes does not die down; and that immaterial continuity consists in two or three rounds of impulsion. Both of these are [according to them] called 'present by continuity'.
114. "What is delimited by a single becoming (existence) is called present by extent, with reference to which it is said in the Bhaddekaratta Sutta: 'Friends, the mind and mental objects are both what is present. Consciousness is bound by desire and greed for what is present. Because consciousness is bound by desire and greed he delights in that. When he delights in that, then he is vanquished with respect to present states' (M.iii, 197).
And here 'present by continuity' is used in the Commentaries while 'present by extent' is used in the Suttas."


Visuddhimagga XIV, 187-191:

QUOTE
187. Herein, ...firstly, according to extent: in the case of single becoming of one [living being], previous rebirth linking is past, subsequent to death is future, between these two is present.
188. ...According to continuity: that [materiality] which has like or single origination by temperature and single origination by nutriment, though it occurs successively, is present. That which, previous to that, was of unlike origination by temperature and nutriment is past. That which is subsequent is future. That which is born of consciousness and has its origination in one cognitive series, in one impulsion, in one attainment, is present. Previous to that is past. Subsequent to that is future. There is no special classification into past continuity, etc., of that which has its origination in kamma, but its pastness, etc., should be understood according as it supports those which have their origination through temperature, nutriment, and consciousness.
189. ...According to period: any period among those such as one minute, morning, evening, day-and-night, etc., that occurs as a continuity, is called present. Previous to that is past. Subsequent is future.
190. ...According to moment: what is included in the trio of moments, [that is to say, arising, presence, and dissolution] beginning with arising is called present. At a time previous to that it is called future. At a time subsequent to that it is called past.
191: Furthermore, that whose functions of cause and condition have elapsed is past. That whose function of cause is finished and whose function of condition is unfinished is present. That which has not attained to either function is future. Or alternatively, the moment of the function is present. At a time previous to that it is future. At a time subsequent to that it is past.
And here only the explanations beginning with the moment are absolutely literal. The rest are in a figurative [or relative] sense."
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[RobertK]

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[RobertK]

SN 1.11 Nandana
Translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi

http://suttacentral.net/sn1.11/en/

Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Savatthi in Jeta’s Grove, Anathapiṇḍika’s Park. There the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus thus: “Bhikkhus!”

“Venerable sir!” those bhikkhus replied. The Blessed One said this:

“Once in the past, bhikkhus, a certain devata of the Tavatiṃsa host was revelling in Nandana Grove, < 11 > supplied and endowed with the five cords of celestial sensual pleasure, accompanied by a retinue of celestial nymphs. On that occasion he spoke this verse:

“‘They do not know bliss
Who have not seen Nandana,
The abode of the glorious male devas
Belonging to the host of Thirty.’ [19]
“When this was said, bhikkhus, a certain devata replied to that devata in verse:

“‘Don’t you know, you fool,
That maxim of the arahants?
Impermanent are all formations;
Their nature is to arise and vanish.
Having arisen, they cease:
Their appeasement is blissful.’” [20]

Notes

[19] Tāvatiṃsa, “the realm of the thirty-three,” is the third sense-sphere heaven. It is so named because thirty-three youths, headed by the youth Magha, had been reborn here as a result of their meritorious deeds. Magha himself became Sakka, ruler of the devas. Nandana is the Garden of Delight in Tāvatiṃsa, so called because it gives delight and joy to anyone who enters it. According to Spk, this deva had just taken rebirth into this heaven and, while wandering through the Nandana Grove, he spoke the verse as a spontaneous paean of joy over his celestial glory. Spk glosses naradevānaṃ with devapurisānaṃ, “devamales”; it is clearly not a dvanda compound. Tidasa, “the Thirty” (lit. “triple ten”), is a poetic epithet for Tāvatiṃsa.

[20] Spk ascribes this rejoinder to a female deva who was a noble disciple (ariyasāvikā). Thinking, “This foolish deva imagines his glory to be permanent and unchanging, unaware that it is subject to cutting off, perishing, and dissolution,” she spoke her stanza in order to dispel his delusion. The “maxim of the arahants” is pronounced by the Buddha at 15:20 (II 193, also at DN II 199,6-7); the deva-king Sakka repeats it on the occasion of the Buddha’s parinibbāna (see v. 609). The first line usually reads aniccā vata saṅkhārā rather than, as here, aniccā sabbasaṅkhārā. An identical exchange of verses occurs below at 9:6, with the goddess Jālinı̄ and the Venerable Anuruddha as speakers. The feminine vocative bāle in pāda b implies that the latter dialogue was the original provenance of the verse, or in any case that the first devatā is female.

Spk: Formations here are all formations of the three planes of existence (sabbe tebhūmakasaṅkhārā), which are impermanent in the sense that they become nonexistent after having come to be (hutvā abhāvaṭṭhena aniccā). Their appeasement is blissful (tesaṃ vūpasamo sukho): Nibbāna itself, called the appeasement of those formations, is blissful.