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Dependent Origination, useful quotes

Dependent Origination ignorance formations consciousness nama rupa 12 twelve links Paṭicca Samuppāda

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#1 Virgo

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 01:43 PM

These are some quotes that I find very useful in uderstanding D.O. (Dependent Origination, Dependent Arising) from the Visuddhimagga: http://www.accesstoi...ication2011.pdf that I provide with the purpose of providing a skeleton for _beginning_ to understand Paṭicca Samuppāda in more depth.  I suggest reading the complete sections for each link in the process at the link given, but these exerpts may help one begin to understand each link better without having to painstakingly sort through all of the material in the beginning.  Nevertheless, it would be well-advised to go back and read the complete sections when possible.  Thank you for giving me the opportunity to share this with you.  I hope you find it of value.

 

IGNORANCE:

 

"...2. As to meaning:...

 

Bodily misconduct, etc., for example, “ought not to be found” (avindiya), in the
sense of being unfit to be carried out; the meaning is that it should not be
permitted. It finds (vindati) what ought not to be found (avindiya), thus it is
ignorance (avijjá). Conversely, good bodily conduct, etc. “ought to be found”
(vindiya). It does not find (na vindati) what ought to be found (vindiya), thus it is
ignorance (avijjá).
 
Also it prevents knowing (avidita) the meaning of collection
in the aggregates, the meaning of actuating in the bases, the meaning of voidness
in the elements, the meaning of predominance in the faculties, the meaning of
reality in the truths, thus it is ignorance (avijjá). Also it prevents knowing the
meaning of suffering, etc., described in four ways as “oppression,” etc. (XVI.15),
thus it is ignorance...
 
...Through all the kinds of generations, destinies, becoming,
stations of consciousness, and abodes of beings in the endless round of rebirths
it drives beings on...thus it is ignorance (avijjá). Furthermore, it is ignorance
because it conceals the physical bases and objects of eye-consciousness, etc.,
and the dependent origination and dependently-originated states...."
 
"...3. As to character, etc.: as to the characteristics of ignorance, etc., that is to
say, ignorance has the characteristic of unknowing. Its function is to confuse. It is
manifested as concealing. Its proximate cause is cankers. Formations have the
characteristic of forming. Their function is to accumulate..."
 
"...How then, is ignorance the causeless root-cause of the world like the Primordial Essence of those who
assert the existence of a Primordial Essence? It is not causeless. For a cause of
ignorance is stated thus, “With the arising of cankers there is the arising of
ignorance” (M I 54). But there is a figurative way in which it can be treated as the
root cause. What way is that? When it is made to serve as a starting point in an
exposition of the round [of becoming]."
 
Kevin


#2 Virgo

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 01:46 PM

2) FORMATIONS:

 

...60. Formations are the six mentioned in brief above thus, “the three, namely,

formations of merit, etc., and the three, namely, the bodily formation, etc.” (§44);
but in detail here the [first] three formations are twenty-nine volitions, that is to
say, the formation of merit consisting of thirteen volitions, counting the eight
sense-sphere profitable volitions that occur in giving, in virtue, etc., and the five
fine-material profitable volitions that occur in development [of meditation]; then
the formation of demerit consisting of the twelve unprofitable volitions that occur
in killing living things, etc.; then the formation of the imperturbable consisting
in the four profitable volitions associated with the immaterial sphere, which
occur in development [of those meditations].
 
...61. As regards the other three, the bodily formation is bodily volition, the verbal
formation is verbal volition, and the mental formation is mental volition. This
triad is mentioned in order to show that at the moment of the accumulation of the
kamma the formations of merit, etc., occur in these [three] kamma doors....
 
...Herein, it might be [asked]: How can it be known that these formations have
ignorance as their condition?—By the fact that they exist when ignorance exists.
For when unknowing—in other words, ignorance—of suffering, etc., is
unabandoned in a man, owing firstly to his unknowing about suffering and
about the past, etc., then he believes the suffering of the round of rebirths to be
pleasant and he embarks upon the three kinds of formations which are the
cause of that very suffering. Owing to his unknowing about suffering’s origin
he embarks upon formations that, being subordinated to craving, are actually
the cause of suffering, imagining them to be the cause of pleasure. And owing to
his unknowing about cessation and the path, he misperceives the cessation of
suffering to be in some particular destiny [such as the Brahmá-world] that is not
in fact cessation; he misperceives the path to cessation, believing it to consist in
sacrifices, mortification for immortality, etc., which are not in fact the path to
cessation; and so while aspiring to the cessation of suffering, he embarks upon
the three kinds of formations in the form of sacrifices, mortification for immortality,
and so on.
 
63. Furthermore, his non-abandonment of that ignorance about the four truths
in particular prevents him from recognizing as suffering the kind of suffering
called the fruit of merit, which is fraught with the many dangers beginning
with birth, ageing, disease and death, and so he embarks upon the formation of
merit classed as bodily, verbal, and mental formations, in order to attain that
[kind of suffering], like one desiring celestial nymphs [who jumps over] a cliff...
 
...Also, not seeing how that fruit of merit reckoned as pleasure eventually breeds
great distress owing to the suffering in its change and that it gives little
satisfaction, he embarks upon the formation of merit of the kinds already stated,
which is the condition for that very [suffering in change], like a moth that falls
into a lamp’s flame, and like the man who wants the drop of honey and licks the
honey-smeared knife-edge...
 
...Also, not seeing the danger in the indulgence of 
sense desires, etc., with its results, [wrongly] perceiving pleasure and overcome
by defilements, he embarks upon the formation of demerit that occurs in the
three doors [of kamma], like a child who plays with filth, and like a man who
wants to die and eats poison... 
 
...Also, unaware of the suffering due to formations
and the suffering-in-change [inherent] in kamma-results in the immaterial
sphere, owing to the perversion of [wrongly perceiving them as] eternal, etc., he
embarks upon the formation of the imperturbable which is a mental formation,
like one who has lost his way and takes the road to a goblin city....
 
...So formations exist only when ignorance exists, [532] not when it does not;
and that is how it can be known that these formations have ignorance as their
condition...
 
...“Not knowing, bhikkhus, in ignorance, he forms the formation
of merit, forms the formation of demerit, forms the formation of the imperturbable.
As soon as a bhikkhu’s ignorance is abandoned and clear vision arisen,
bhikkhus, with the fading away of ignorance and the arising of clear vision he
does not form even formations of merit” (cf. S II 82)...
 
Kevin


#3 Virgo

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 02:10 PM

3) CONSCIOUSNESS:
 
...In the clause, with formations as condition, consciousness, consciousness is
sixfold as eye-consciousness, and so on...
 
... Here it may be asked: “But how is it to be known that this consciousness
of the kind stated actually has formations as its condition?”—Because there is
no kamma-result when there is no stored-up kamma.  For this consciousness is
kamma-result, and kamma-result  does not arise in the absence of stored-up kamma.  If it did, then all kinds of kamma-resultant consciousnesses would arise in all kinds of beings, and they do not do so. This is how it should be
known that such consciousness has formations as its condition....
 
...But which kind of consciousness has which kind of formations as its
condition?
Firstly, the following sixteen kinds arise with the sense-sphere e formation of
merit as condition: the five profitable resultants beginning with eye-consciousness...
 
...Firstly, in one who has been reborn by means of either profitable-result or
unprofitable result: according as his faculties mature, so the five profitable-resultant eye-, etc., consciousnesses occur accomplishing the respective functions of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, and touching...
 
....“Due to profitable kamma of the sense sphere having been performed,
stored up [in the past], resultant eye-consciousness arises [in the present]” (Dhs
§431), and so on. Having become conditions for their own fruit according to
their capacity, they do not again bear fruit since the result has already ripened.
 
...The formation of demerit as rebirth-linking ripens in the sense-sphere becoming only,...
 
...The formation of the imperturbable as rebirth-linking ripens in the
immaterial becoming, in the apparitional kind of generation only, in the
divine destiny only, in the three stations of consciousness beginning
with the base consisting of boundless space, and in the four abodes of
beings beginning with the base consisting of boundless space.
 
Kevin


#4 Virgo

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 12:07 PM

Mentality-materiality 

 

(Mentality) "...Rebirth-linking or some other kind of resultant consciousness is a

condition in nine ways, as conascence, mutuality, support, association, kamma-result,
nutriment, faculty, presence, and non-disappearance conditions, either at
rebirth-linking or in the course of an existence, for that mentality called resultant,
whether mixed with materiality or not...
 
(Materiality) ...At rebirth-linking it is a condition in
nine ways, as conascence, mutuality, support, kamma-result, nutriment, faculty,
dissociation, presence, and non-disappearance conditions, for the materiality of
the physical [heart-] basis. It is a condition in eight ways, namely, as the above
conditions omitting the mutuality condition, for materiality other than the
materiality of the physical basis."
 
"...All the remaining kinds of consciousness from the time of the first life-continuum [consciousness following rebirth-linking] onwards should be
understood as a condition for some kind of mentality-materiality as appropriate.
But since the whole contents of the Paþþhána must be cited in order to show how
it acts in detail, we do not undertake that...
 
202. Here it may be asked: “But how is it to be known [562] that the mentality-
materiality of rebirth-linking has consciousness as its condition?” From the
suttas and from logic. For in the suttas it is established in many places that
feeling, etc., have consciousness as condition in the way beginning, “States
with parallel occurrence through consciousness” (Dhs §1522). But as to logic:
 
From matter seen here to be born
Of consciousness a man can tell
That consciousness is a condition
For matter when unseen as well.
 
Whether consciousness likes it or not, [certain] material instances are seen to
arise in conformity with it. And the unseen is inferred from the seen. So it can be
known, by means of the consciousness-born materiality that is seen, that
consciousness is also a condition for the unseen materiality of rebirth-linking.
For it is said in the Paþþhána that, like the consciousness-originated, also the
kamma-originated has consciousness as its condition (see Paþþh I 172–73)."
 
Kevin


#5 Virgo

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 01:04 PM

The Six-fold Base:

 

"...“But how is it to be known that mentality-materiality

is a condition for the sixfold base?” Because the latter exists when mentality-materiality exists.
For a given base exists when a given kind of mentality and
materiality exists, not otherwise."
 

"...As to matter, the materiality of the physical [heart-] basis is a condition in

rebirth-linking in six ways, as conascence, mutuality, support, dissociation,
presence, and non-disappearance conditions, for the sixth, the mind base. But
the four primaries are in general, that is to say, in rebirth-linking and in the
course of an existence, conditions in four ways, as conascence, support, presence,
and non-disappearance conditions, for any of the five bases beginning with the
eye, whenever they arise..."
 
"...But in rebirth-linking and in the course of an existence the material life
[faculty] is a condition in three ways, as presence, non-disappearance, and faculty
conditions, for these five beginning with the eye. Nutriment too is a condition in
three ways, as presence, non-disappearance, and nutriment conditions..."
 
(A work in progress...)
 
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#6 Virgo

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 07:35 PM

Contact:

 

"Briefly, with the clause “With the sixfold base as condition, contact,”

there are only the six kinds beginning with eye-contact, that is to say, eye-contact,
ear-contact, nose-contact, tongue-contact, body-contact, and mind-contact."
 
"224. Here it may be asked: “One kind of contact does not derive from all the
bases, nor all the kinds of contact from one base. And yet ‘With the sixfold base
as condition, contact’ is said in the singular. Why is that?”...
 
"...225. Here is the answer: It is true that neither is one derived from all nor all
from one. However, one is derived from many. For eye-contact is derived from the
eye base, from the visible-data base, from the mind base reckoned as eye-
consciousness, and from the mental-datum base consisting of the remaining
associated states. And each case should be construed as appropriate in this way...
 
Therefore:
Though stated in the singular,
He shows therewith in all such cases
That this contact, though only one,
Is yet derived from several bases.
 
Though stated in the singular: the meaning is, by this statement in the singular
that “With the sixfold base as condition, contact,” it is pointed out by the Blessed
One (Tádin) that contact, which is of one kind, comes into being from many
bases."
 
"227. Here is the explanation: firstly, the five consisting of the eye base, etc., are
conditions in six ways, as support, prenascence, faculty, dissociation, presence,
and non-disappearance conditions, for contact classed in five ways as eye-
contact, and so on. After that, the single resultant mind base is a condition in
nine ways, as conascence, mutuality, support, result, nutriment, faculty,
association, presence, and non-disappearance conditions, for the variously-
classed resultant mind contact. But in the case of the external bases, the visible-
data base is a condition in four ways, as object, prenascence, presence, and non-
disappearance conditions, for eye-contact. Likewise the sound base, etc.,
respectively for ear-contact, and so on. But these and mental data as object are
conditions likewise, and as object condition too, for mind-contact, so “the external
six as contact’s conditionality according to each case we fix.”
 
This is the detailed explanation of the clause “With the sixfold base as
condition, contact.”"
 
Kevin


#7 Virgo

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 12:08 PM

Feeling:

 

"229. In the analysis of this clause [in the Vibhaòga] only six kinds of feeling

according to door are given thus, “Eye-contact-born feeling, ear-, nose-, tongue-,
body-, mind-contact-born feeling” (Vibh 136). [567] Still, when classed according
to association with the eighty-nine kinds of consciousness, they are “at nine
and eighty sorts assessed.”
 
 
(The section on Feeling is very short)
 
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#8 Virgo

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 12:11 PM

Craving:

 

" As regards the clause “With feeling as condition, craving”:

Six cravings, for things visible
and all the rest, are treated here;
And each of these, when it occurs,
Can in one of three modes appear."
 
"Each of these six kinds of craving
is reckoned threefold according to its mode of occurrence as craving for sense
desires, craving for becoming, or craving for non-becoming."
 
"When visible-data craving occurs enjoying with sense-desire enjoyment
a visible datum as object that has come into the focus of the eye, it is called
craving for sense desires. But when [that same visible-data craving] occurs along
with the eternity view that assumes that same object to be lasting and eternal,
[568] it is called craving for becoming; for it is the greed accompanying the
eternity view that is called craving for becoming. When it occurs along with the
annihilation view that assumes that same object to break up and be destroyed, it
is called craving for non-becoming; for it is the greed accompanying the
annihilation view that is called craving for non-becoming. So also in the case of
craving for sounds, and so on.
These amount to eighteen kinds of craving. The eighteen with respect to
one’s own visible data (one’s own appearance), etc., and eighteen with respect
to external [visible data (another’s appearance), etc.,] together make thirty-six
kinds. Thirty-six in the past, thirty-six in the future, and thirty-six in the present,
make one-hundred-and-eight kinds of craving. When these are reduced again,
they should be understood to amount to the six kinds only with visible data, etc.,
as object; and these, to three only, as craving for sense desires, and so on."
 
Kevin


#9 Virgo

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 12:15 PM

Clinging:

 

"When visible-data craving occurs enjoying with sense-desire enjoyment

a visible datum as object that has come into the focus of the eye, it is called
craving for sense desires. But when [that same visible-data craving] occurs along
with the eternity view that assumes that same object to be lasting and eternal,
[568] it is called craving for becoming; for it is the greed accompanying the
eternity view that is called craving for becoming. When it occurs along with the
annihilation view that assumes that same object to break up and be destroyed, it
is called craving for non-becoming; for it is the greed accompanying the
annihilation view that is called craving for non-becoming. So also in the case of
craving for sounds, and so on.
These amount to eighteen kinds of craving. The eighteen with respect to
one’s own visible data (one’s own appearance), etc., and eighteen with respect
to external [visible data (another’s appearance), etc.,] together make thirty-six
kinds. Thirty-six in the past, thirty-six in the future, and thirty-six in the present,
make one-hundred-and-eight kinds of craving. When these are reduced again,
they should be understood to amount to the six kinds only with visible data, etc.,
as object; and these, to three only, as craving for sense desires, and so on."
 
"When visible-data craving occurs enjoying with sense-desire enjoyment
a visible datum as object that has come into the focus of the eye, it is called
craving for sense desires. But when [that same visible-data craving] occurs along
with the eternity view that assumes that same object to be lasting and eternal,
[568] it is called craving for becoming; for it is the greed accompanying the
eternity view that is called craving for becoming. When it occurs along with the
annihilation view that assumes that same object to break up and be destroyed, it
is called craving for non-becoming; for it is the greed accompanying the
annihilation view that is called craving for non-becoming. So also in the case of
craving for sounds, and so on.
These amount to eighteen kinds of craving. The eighteen with respect to
one’s own visible data (one’s own appearance), etc., and eighteen with respect
to external [visible data (another’s appearance), etc.,] together make thirty-six
kinds. Thirty-six in the past, thirty-six in the future, and thirty-six in the present,
make one-hundred-and-eight kinds of craving. When these are reduced again,
they should be understood to amount to the six kinds only with visible data, etc.,
as object; and these, to three only, as craving for sense desires, and so on."
 
Kevin


#10 Virgo

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 12:20 PM

Some more on Clinging:

 

"245. And here [false-] view clinging, etc., are abandoned first because they

are eliminated by the path of stream-entry. Sense-desire clinging is abandoned
later because it is eliminated by the path of Arahantship. This is the order of
their abandoning.
246. Sense-desire clinging, however, is taught first among them because of
the breadth of its objective field and because of its obviousness. For it has a
broad objective field because it is associated with eight kinds of consciousness
((22)–(29)). The others have a narrow objective field because they are associated
with four kinds of consciousness ((22), (23), (26) and (27)). And usually it is
sense-desire clinging that is obvious because of this generation’s love of
attachment (see M I 167), not so the other kinds."
 
Kevin


#11 Virgo

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 12:52 PM

Becoming:

 

"That is twofold as kamma-process becoming and rebirth-process becoming"

 

"“Herein, what is kamma-process becoming?

The formation of merit, the formation of demerit, the formation of the
imperturbable, either with a small (limited) plane or with a large (exalted) plane:
that is called kamma-process becoming. Also all kamma that leads to becoming
is called kamma-process becoming” (Vibh 137).
252. Here the formation of merit is, in terms of states, the thirteen kinds of
volition ((1)–(13)), the formation of demerit is the twelve kinds ((22)–(33)), and
the formation of the imperturbable is the four kinds ((14)–(17)). So with the
words either with a small (limited) plane or with a large (exalted) plane the
insignificance or magnitude of these same volitions’ result is expressed here.
But with the words also all kamma that leads to becoming the covetousness, etc.,
associated with volition are expressed."
 
"253. Rebirth-process becoming briefly is aggregates generated by kamma. It is
of nine kinds, according as it is said: “Herein, what is rebirth-process becoming?
Sense-desire becoming, fine-material becoming, immaterial becoming, percipient
becoming, non-percipient becoming, neither-percipient-nor-non-percipient
becoming, one-constituent becoming, [572] four-constituent becoming, five-
constituent becoming: this is called rebirth-process becoming” (Vibh 17).
254. Herein, the kind of becoming called “having sense desires” is sense-desire
becoming. Similarly with the fine-material and immaterial kinds of becoming. It is
the becoming of those possessed of perception, or there is perception here in
becoming, thus it is percipient becoming. The opposite kind is non-percipient
becoming. Owing to the absence of gross perception and to the presence of subtle
perception there is neither perception nor non-perception in that kind of
becoming, thus it is neither-percipient-nor-non-percipient becoming. It is becoming
constituted out of the materiality aggregate only, thus it is one-constituent becoming
or that kind of becoming has only one constituent, [the materiality aggregate, or
dimension,] thus it is one-constituent becoming. And similarly the four-constituent
[has the four mental aggregates, or dimensions,] and the five-constituent [has the
material and the four mental aggregates, or dimensions]."
 
"255. Herein, sense-desire becoming is five aggregates acquired through kamma
(clung to). Likewise the fine-material becoming. Immaterial becoming is four.
Percipient becoming is four and five. Non-percipient becoming is one aggregate
that is acquired through kamma (clung to). Neither-percipient-nor-non-percipient
becoming is four. One-constituent becoming, etc., are respectively one, four, and
five aggregates as aggregates that are acquired through kamma (clung to).
This is how the exposition should be known here “as to state.”"
 
"259. 5. As to synthesis, however, by uniting kamma-process becoming and rebirth-
process becoming there is, together with what is included by it, one kind of
sense-desire becoming with sense-desire clinging as its condition. . Similarly
with fine-material and immaterial becoming. So there are three kinds of becoming..."
 
 


#12 Virgo

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 01:03 PM

Birth:

 

"271. Here it may be asked: “But how is it to be known that becoming is a

condition for birth?” Because of the observable difference of inferiority and
superiority. For in spite of equality of external circumstances, such as father,
mother, seed, blood, nutriment, etc., the difference of inferiority and superiority
of beings is observable even in the case of twins. And that fact is not causeless,
since it is not present always and in all; [576] nor has it any cause other than
kamma-process becoming since there is no other reason in the internal continuity
of beings generated by it. Consequently, it has only kamma-process becoming
for its cause. And because kamma is the cause of the difference of inferiority and
superiority among beings the Blessed One said, “It is kamma that separates
beings according to inferiority and superiority” (M III 203). From that it can be
known that becoming is a condition for birth."


#13 Virgo

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 01:03 PM

Ageing and Death:

 

"t when there is birth, then ageing and death come about,

and also the states beginning with sorrow, which are either bound up with ageing
and death in a fool who is affected by the painful states called ageing and death, or
which are not so bound up in one who is affected by some painful state or other;
therefore this birth is a condition for ageing and death and also for sorrow and so
on. But it is a condition in one way, as decisive-support type."


#14 Johann (Hanzze)

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 04:31 PM

I know, it might be not most joyful for people who love Abhidhamma, but actually that is the point of this simile in word and sample here and now. Watch it:
 

 
Falling Out of a Tree

...It's the same with dependent co-arising. "Ignorance is the condition for fabrications. Fabrications are the condition for consciousness. Consciousness is the condition for name and form." We've studied this and memorized it, and it's true, the way the Buddha has divided things up like this for students to study. But when these things actually arise, they're too fast for you to count.
 

It's like falling from the top of a tree — thump! — to the ground. We don't know which branches we've passed. The moment the mind is struck by a good object, if it's something it likes, it goes straight to "good." It doesn't know the connecting steps in between. They follow in line with the texts, but they also go outside of the texts. They don't say, "Right here is ignorance. Right here is fabrication. Right here is consciousness. Right here is name and form." They don't have signs for you to read. It's like falling out of a tree. The Buddha talks about the mental moments in full detail, but I use the comparison with falling out of a tree. When you slip out of a tree — thump! — you don't measure how many feet and inches you've fallen. All you know is you've crashed to the ground and are already hurting.

In Simple Terms: 108 Dhamma Similes

 

 

 

 


 



#15 Virgo

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 07:04 PM

Yes, but the Buddha did teach it thoroughly and implore disciples to understand it because of it's immense value.  

 

It is actually meant to be understood over a series of lifetimes, not as mere momentary arising...

 

Unfortunately the good Ajahn may not have known of understood this.

 

All the best

Kevin



#16 Johann (Hanzze)

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 02:26 AM

It is actually meant to be understood over a series of lifetimes, not as mere momentary arising...

 

 

Alexander, that would be actually a good beginning to see that, to develop some degrees of samvega as well as some degrees of right view. The rest I would not speculate to much. At least we are taught to observe it at its smallest appearance. Sure, most need a big frame but you could lose a lot of possibilities and the mad thing is you would even not remember.
To know that all that is born will die and even have a reason for birth is a pretty good motivation for non-action.

 

You can be sure that a mediator always understands more that somebody had studied book. But for know this, you have to know both. Otherwise, another speculation and nothing more.



#17 Virgo

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 03:36 PM

 

 Sure, most need a big frame but you could lose a lot of possibilities and the mad thing is you would even not remember.

 

For example, Formations -> Consciousness shows that the formations of kamma - created because of Ignorance - in some past lifetime lead to the vipaaka that produces rebirth-linking consciousness (patisandhi citta), which is vipaakacitta, in a new lifetime.  This Consciousness is cause for more Mentaility - materiality in that new lifetime.  Which is cause for the continuation of the arising of Sense-bases and Contact which leads to Feeling > Craving > Clinging in that same life (and beyond it).  That Clinging is cause for Becoming > Birth (new lifetime) > Ageing, death, etc.

 

This is when it is shown by 12 links.  But of course it is cyclical, not linear as a process which creates births.  Nevertheless, it shows within it the process that causes aggregates to continue to come into being "over lifetimes".

 

 

Best,

Kevin



#18 Johann (Hanzze)

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 04:09 PM

And how would you be able to experience that, get it really known here and now? Lets wait if it is true after death? This approach could easily leads to a nihilistic view.

With becoming (bhava) - that should be better understood as a sense of existence - the formation of the aggregates (coming into being) takes place. To see Jati just as a live time matter (of course no doubt that the small stuff works in the big frame as well), as said, would easy lead to speculations.

I found this talk useful in this regard. Maybe you like to lend it an ear.
Sweat the Small Stuff Talk mp3 arrow.gif, ... download pdf transcript arrow.gif, ...(Übersetzung, Setze auf die Kleinigkeiten)



#19 Johann (Hanzze)

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 05:51 AM

Thanks Robert for the share:

 

or "But that which is called Citta and Mano and Vinnana arises as one thing
and ceases as another by day and night."
Samyutta 12:61 (Bhikkhu Bodhi transl).

http://www.abhidhamm...c=258#entry1084

 

I have started to use the word "entity" (Wesen) and "entity drive" (Wesensdrang) for ceto, cetana. So cetovimuti (entity-release), in the here and now, one does not need to wait upon the later. Release can be just in the moment, there where it arises, or better would arise. That needs effort and no way to give a speculative release.

Entity is nothing else as the assembling of the five aggregates (I hope that does not confuse to much). Any I guess a main message, the reason for so many discussions about this issue, can be found in the Assutavā Sutta: Uninstructed (1) in its whole.

 



#20 Johann (Hanzze)

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 01:59 PM

SN 42.11 Gandhabhaka (Bhadraka) Sutta: To Gandhabhaka (Bhadraka)

 

....

 

"Headman, if I were to teach you the origination & ending of stress with reference to the past, saying, 'Thus it was in the past,' you would be doubtful and perplexed. If I were to teach you the origination & ending of stress with reference to the future, saying, 'Thus it will be in the future,' you would be doubtful and perplexed. So instead, I — sitting right here — will teach you sitting right there the origination & ending of stress. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak." 

 

.... view further

 







Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Dependent Origination, ignorance, formations, consciousness, nama rupa, 12 twelve, links, Paṭicca Samuppāda