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Ceasation of feeling and perception


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#1 Johnny Pruitt

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Posted 31 August 2006 - 06:24 PM

I was wondering what people thought about the realtaion of The Cessation Of Feling And Perception and dreamless sleep and the Signless absorbtion of the Fruition Attainment
It seems to me that if the cessation of perct and feeling meant the ceasation of all mental awareness then it would be the same as dreamless sleep. Yet if it was simply the consciousness without feature yet still aware then it would seem to resembel the Fruition Attainment.
A hypothesis that I have based on the Vissudhi-Magga is that it is a state similar to dreamless sleep yet is brought about differently. I base this on the fact that the Vissudhi-Magga differentiates between Fruition Attainment and the Cessation Of Perception And Feeling. However this does not really seem likely due to the fact that after one rises from The Cessation Of Perction And Feeling one is enlightened and "Tends toward the signless attainment" were as after waking from dreamless sleep one does not "Tend toward the signless".
I am not sure if this is a pointless question due to the fact that most of us will probably not ever attain these states but I just though it would be nice to know what the Vissudhi-Magga was clarifing. Hope to hear your valuable opinions.
Mettacittena Johnny Pruitt

#2 RobertK

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Posted 01 September 2006 - 09:10 AM

Welcome to the forum Johhny!

during deep sleep there are long periods of bhavanga citta arising and passing: even animals, people with wrong view. the insane etc have this.

Thus I think in no way does it relate to Signless absorbtion of the Fruition Attainment.


#3 Johnny Pruitt

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Posted 02 September 2006 - 04:33 AM

Thank you for the courteous welcome Robert.
I agree that all manner of beings have this Bavanga Citta. Thus, you must sense my confusion; due to the fact that The Cessation Attainment obviously is not similar to dreamless sleep. Dreamless sleep is not the condition for the Fruition Attainment were as the Cessation attainment is.
And on the other hand The cessation Attainment is not similar to the Fruition Attainment but is the condition for it.
Therefore, it seems that this Cessation attainment does not fit into either catagory and moreover I see no third category for it to be. It is either cessation of all mental opporations or "some" form of mental opporation which seems to defy the title given to it.

#4 RobertK

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Posted 03 September 2006 - 12:17 PM

Dear Johhny
Thanks for the extra details.
You might need to add the pali so we can be sure we are talking about the right attainments
During Cessation(nirodha-samapatti) there is no consciousness at all, citta and cetasika are absent, but they start rearising as soon as the attainment ends,
See XXIII 43 Visuddhimagga.

Note the cessation attainment is not a condition for fruition, except that when leaving cessation fruition arises:


QUOTE

Nina van Gorkom
For those who emerge from cessation, the first citta which arises is a phala-citta (lokuttara vipakacitta), having nibbana as its object. In the case of the anagami it is the phala-citta of the anagami and in the case of the arahat it is the phala-citta of the arahat.


QUOTE
Nina van GorkomWe read in the 'Greater Discourse of the Miscellany' (Middle Length Sayings I, No. 43) that Maha-kotthita asked Sariputta a number of questions. He also asked questions about the difference between the dead body and the monk who has attained cessation. We read that Maha-kotthita asked:

'In regard to this body, Your reverence, when how many things are got rid of, does this body lie cast away, flung aside like unto a senseless log of wood?'
'In regard to this body, Your reverence, when three things are got rid of: vitality, heat and consciousness, then does this body lie cast away, flung aside like unto a senseless log of wood.'

'What is the difference, your reverence, between that dead thing, passed away, and that monk who has attained to the stopping of perception and feeling?'

'Your reverence, the bodily activities of that dead thing, passed away, have been stopped, have subsided, the mental activities have been stopped, have subsided, the vitality is entirely destroyed, the heat allayed, the sense-organs are entirely broken asunder. But that monk who has attained to the stopping of perception and feeling, although his bodily activities have been stopped, have subsided, although his vocal activities have been stopped, have subsided, although his mental activities have been stopped, have subsided, his vitality is not entirely destroyed, his heat is not allayed, his sense-organs are purified. This, your reverence, is the difference between a dead thing, passed away, and that monk who has attained to the stopping of perception and feeling.'



Robert

#5 Johnny Pruitt

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Posted 06 September 2006 - 04:05 PM

Yes Robert you are correct, the cessation attainment is not the "condition" for the Fruition Attainment but is rather simply a regular occurance before the arising of a Fruition Attainment.
Nevertheless, from your informative posting it seems that the Cessation Attainment seems to be quite similar to a dreamless sleep and thus most of us have ben in this state before. The way that Sariputta expained it to Maha-Kotthita seems to cast this Attainment Of The Cessation Of Percerption And Feeling in the same light as a deep rest so that "his sense organs are purified". That phrase sounds like a beauty rest of some sort.
I now understand what the Cessation Of Perception And Feeing is similar to but what are the logical outcomes of this state. For instance why do most people after waking from a dreamless sleep not realize a Fruition Attainment?
thanks for the help

#6 Guest_Scott Duncan_*

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 12:48 AM

Dear Johnny,

I was studying Nina van Gorkom's The Conditionality of Life in the Buddhist Teachings and your question came to mind. I'll offer this quote which comes from a footnote on pages 41-42, in the chapter discussing Proximity-condition and Contiguity-condition (Robert offered a portion of this quote earlier, I believe):

"In some cases there can be temporary suspension of citta, and then only ruupas arise and fall away. Those who have developed samatha up to the fourth stage of aruupa-jhaana, the "Sphere of Neither Perception Nor Non-Perception" and those who have realised the stage of enlightenment of the anaagaamii, non-returner, and of the arahat, can attain "cessation" nirodha-samaapatti. This is the temporary suspension of citta, cetasikas and mind-produced ruupa. Ruupas produced by kamma, temperature and nutriment, in the case of beings in the Brahma plane, continue to arise. When they emerge from cessation, the first citta which arises is the phala-citta, fruition consciousness (lokuttara vipaakacitta), which has nibbaana as its object. For the anaagaamii it is the phala-citta of the anaagaamii and for the arahat it is the phala-citta of the arahat. This citta is conditioned by the preceding citta, the aruupa-jhaanacitta of the fourth stage which occured prior to cessation. Thus, the force of proximity is not destroyed by the temporary suspension of citta.

"It is the same in the case of rebirth in the asa~n~na-satta plane, the plane where there is only ruupa. When the lifespan in that plane is over and there is rebirth in the sensuous plane, the rebirth-consciousness is conditioned by the dying-consciousness which occured prior to rebirth in the asa~n~na-satta plane. Thus the force of proximity is not destroyed."

Does that address the question?

Sincerely,

Scott.

#7 Johnny Pruitt

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 07:48 PM

Dear Scot,
Thanks for the info. That realy helps clarify the issue. Especially the part about the citta of the previous cognition before the cessation. That must be the reason that a person who simply falls asleep does not become enlightened because prior to their descent into dreamless sleep they have certain defilements..
It is almost as if the cessation attainment happens after one has put in order their mind and then turned out the lights for a longer pieriod of time than a normal person does in sleep.
Thanks to everyone for your patience and research.

#8 Guest_Scott Duncan_*

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Posted 09 September 2006 - 03:22 AM

QUOTE(Johnny Pruitt @ Sep 8 2006, 01:48 PM) View Post

Dear Scot,
Thanks for the info. That realy helps clarify the issue. Especially the part about the citta of the previous cognition before the cessation. That must be the reason that a person who simply falls asleep does not become enlightened because prior to their descent into dreamless sleep they have certain defilements..
It is almost as if the cessation attainment happens after one has put in order their mind and then turned out the lights for a longer pieriod of time than a normal person does in sleep.
Thanks to everyone for your patience and research.

You're welcome, Johnny. I learned this along with you.

Sincerely,

Scott.