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#1 RobertK

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Posted 01 May 2006 - 01:34 PM

When we are concerned that sila be in evidence and in balance what are the dhammas at that moment. Is there genuine understanding that simply sees that at this moment there is sila. Or is there a degree of conceit that is happy that now sila is evident. Or is there worry that it is not so evident. Or is there a subtle clinging to the idea of me having sila.

Nina quoted "Kindred Sayings" (IV, Salåyatanavagga, Second Fifty, Ch 2, § 70:

Then the venerable Upavåna came to see the Exalted One:- " 'Of immediate use is the Norm (Dhamma)! Of immediate use is the Norm!' is the saying, lord. Pray, lord, to what extent is the Norm of immediate use, apart from time, bidding one come and see, leading on (to the Goal), to be experienced, each for himself, by the wise?" "Now here (under my teaching), Upavåna, when a brother sees an object with the eye, he experiences objects, conceives a passion for objects, and of that passion for objects which exists for him personally he is aware, 'I have personally a passion for objects.'..."

Are we as keen as those monks in the Buddha's time who really investigated the present moment including 'passion'. If not there won't be understanding of the anattaness of all dhammas.


KenH: I don't disagree with your words - "there is a description of how mind states come and go by conditions. An understanding of that description, is the most potent condition for kusala states to arise now and in the future." Christine: BUT I still don't see how that is any different to other forms of practice (sitting meditation, keeping sila). Who is it that understands, and how do they go about gaining understanding? It reminds me of the question that I asked at Cooran .... "How are we to live an 'examined life if there is no-self, no-control?' Even 'listening to the true dhamma, reflecting ... discussing with Admirable friends ... and practising in accordance with the true Dhamma, seems to imply 'someone' who can have 'some control' and 'the ability to choose, plan and do' to some extent."
______________

You ask "who is it that understands"? This reminds me of the questions asked by venerable Moliyaphagunna (Samyuttanikaya Nidana Moliyaphagguna p541 bodhi) "'With the six bases (salayatana)as condition contact comes to be'. Ven. Moliyaphagguna: 'Venerable sir, who feels?' Buddha: 'I do not say 'One makes contact'. If I should say 'One makes contact' in that case this would be a valid question.....In this case the valid answer is 'With the six sense bases as condition, contact [comes to be]; with contact as condition feeling'. Moliyaphagguna: 'venerable sir, who craves?. Buddha: I do not say 'one craves...." endquote The Buddha says (SN 12:35 Bodhi p.575) that with the eradication of ignorance such ideas and vacillations as "what now are volitional formations (sankhara) , and for 'whom' are there volitional formations? or'Volitional formations are one thing, the one for whom there are these volitional formations is another'--all these are abandoned, cut off at the root...."endquote.

It is ignorance of dhammas that is the heart of why this wheel keeps spinning. KenH was so compassionate to explain this and so, inspired by him, I add more. The Visuddhimagga notes about the development of vipassana: "there is no removal of false view in one who takes it thus "I see with insight, my insight'..there is removal of false view in one who takes it thus 'only formations see formations with insight, comprehend, define, discern and delimit them." XX83

I might have mentioned a while back meeting a Hare Krishna in Auckland . He was about my age and had spent 20 years living at the center. He told me about his austere life which was quite impressive and by any outward measure full of sila. But to me he seemed trapped by his way of life. This doesn't mean he would be better off leaving and living some conventional life where frivilous talk and so on are common. However, I think it hints at what KenH said with regard to understanding the moment been most potent. Vis XV163:

"The perfect ones behave like lions. When they make suffering cease and when they teach the the cessation of suffering, they deal with the cause, not the fruit. But the sectarians behave like dogs. When they make suffering cease and when they teach the cessation of suffering, by teaching devotion to self-mortification etc., they deal with the fruit not the cause."

When there is a moment of insight there cannot be the breaking of sila. If it is genuine insight then it isn't forced and so the anattaness of sati is known too. This moments may not happen as regularly as tanha would wish - but that is ok because gradually tanha will come to be known too. That is, if there are the right conditions - such as having good friends, hearing true Dhamma, refelecting wisely. So if there is growing insight then confidence in the benefit of understanding the moment and of sila and of all kusala will develop. And this brings more patience and so the present moment can be seen better, and that leads to more insight, more confidence, which leads...

But there is no one who can control any of that. Next year- if conditions are such- we might join the Hares.

RobertK

#2 RobertK

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Posted 04 May 2007 - 12:37 PM

I think Ven. Moliyaphagunna didn't lose anything by becoming a monk
and meeting the Buddha. They don't say about his final destination
though...I guess it is unknown. All of us are in samsara together
and
so we should develop compassion, metta and mudita and equanimity to
all, even ants and cockroaches. In this case upekka , equanimity is
needed because we cannot help the Venerable: We should try to
understand that conditions work their way, and by each his own kamma
is done. It doesn't help anyone to have sadness about the strife of
samsara - but with more understanding we can find ways to help those
who we might help.
There is the case of saccaka (I think that was his name) who
rejected
the teachings on anatta direct from the Buddha. But the commentary
says that a few hundred years later he was reborn in Sri lanka (I
forget his intervening rebirth(s) and became a monk, became an
arahant who could know his past lives . He wasn't fully ready at the
time the Buddha spoke to him, but the words still helped to
condition
understanding that finally came to climax. Devadatta is another - he
has a firm prediction to become a Pacekka-Buddha after he emerges
from apaya. So who knows, ven. Moliyaphagunna may be closer than we
think to final nibbana.
The rest of your post speaks of your growing insight to me
Christine.
It is never as much as "we" want but we should be grateful for just
a
little. You see the objects of satipatthana are just these khandhas
right here and now. The 'sad' khandhas are part of Paticcasamuppada
(sorrow, lamentation.....) ; we should take the chance to understand
them at the moments they arise, they too are conditioned and empty
of
self. If we can do that then a barrier lifts and one knows that any
object is fine to study, to insight. And then all of life becomes a
series of opportunities to investigate and we feel much freer
because
there is not the same urge to have special objects. One thinks 'let
anything come, it can be known'. ....... Now having said that I
want to add that mostly I want things to be pleasant. I am not as
brave as that statement sounds, I write to encourage myself.
Here is a sutta you might appreciate:
Anguttara Nikaya
Mahavaggo THE GREAT CHAPTER Blessings

RETHREN, four blessings should be expected from listening to with
the
ear, constant recitation with the voice, careful consideration with
the mind and penetration of the Norm (Dhamma) through insight (1).
What four ?
Herein, brethren, a brother masters the Norm consisting of the
Suttas..... Vedalla (2). He thus listens to, constantly recites,
carefully ponders over and penetrates the Norm. When he dies
bewildered (3) in mind and is reborn in a certain assembly of devas,
there the blissful ones recite to him the stanzas of the Norm.
Brethren, the arising of mindfulness is slow, but such a being
quickly achieves distinction therein.(4) Brethren, this is the first
blessing that should be expected from listening to, constant
recitation, careful consideration and penetration of the Norm
through
insight.

Again, brethren, a brother masters the Norm consisting of the
Suttas,
etc. He thus listens to; [as above] and is reborn in an assembly of
devas. There the blissful ones do not recite to him the stanzas of
the Norm ; but a brother possessed of psychic powers, who has
mastered his mind, proclaims the Norm to the assembly of devas. Then
this thought occurs to him (the former) This is indeed that Norm and
Discipline, according to which I lived the holy life in my previous
existence.' Brethren, slow is the arising of mindfulness. Yet that
being quickly achieves distinction therein.

Brethren, just as a person skilled in the sounds of drums, having
entered a road, hears the sound of a drum, and has no doubt or
uncertainty as to whether it is the sound of a drum or not. Then he
concludes that it is surely the sound of a drum. Just so, brethren,
a
brother masters the Norm consisting of the Suttas, etc. Then he
listens to [as above]. Then indeed that being quickly achieves
distinction therein. Brethren, this is the second blessing that
should be expected from listening to, constant recitation, careful
consideration and penetration of the Norm through insight....

1 Diññiyà,. Comy. says 'himself penetrates it by his wisdom both as
regards sense and cause.'

3 Comy. says 'he is still a puthujjana'' One dying without reaching
the Paths is said to die with mindfulness not established.

4 Comy`. He becomes nibbàna-gàmin (bound for the goal).'

http://www.abhidhamm.....(2) 20htm.htm
best wishes
robert




#3 satipanna

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 11:03 PM

This is the ending of one of your posts here:
Vis XV163:"The perfect ones behave like lions. When they make suffering cease and when they teach the the cessation of suffering, they deal with the cause, not the fruit. But the sectarians behave like dogs. When they make suffering cease and when they teach the cessation of suffering, by teaching devotion to self-mortification etc., they deal with the fruit not the cause."

When there is a moment of insight there cannot be the breaking of sila. If it is genuine insight then it isn't forced and so the anattaness of sati is known too. This moments may not happen as regularly as tanha would wish - but that is ok because gradually tanha will come to be known too. That is, if there are the right conditions - such as having good friends, hearing true Dhamma, refelecting wisely. So if there is growing insight then confidence in the benefit of understanding the moment and of sila and of all kusala will develop. And this brings more patience and so the present moment can be seen better, and that leads to more insight, more confidence, which leads...

But there is no one who can control any of that. Next year- if conditions are such- we might join the Hares.

RobertK
[/quote]

I feel compelled to add here that if we train the mind to detect when mindfulness is weakening, then mindfulness can be renewed, the mind will correct itself by being attentive to the present moment. Its not that i am saying there is a solid entity in control to bring mindfulness back to an accurate strength, here, the present moment itself is what destroys craving or aversion, liking or disliking.

I do not recall the name of the talk by Ajahn Chah but what he said, gratefully, stuck to this mind like glue. He said each moment of mindfulness is like a drop of water in a bucket. Eventually the bucket becomes full. Each moment of mindfulness should not be undervalued because eventually mindfulness becomes stronger than the defilements. Defilement cannot hold the mind in sway while mindfulness as a mental factor is present. Even more so defilement is weakened by the development of mindfulness because mindfulness is a purifying agent, that is just the change minfulness effects on the mind. Delusion & ignorance will steadily fade away by pursuing the maintenance of mindfulness.

The Satipatthana Sutta is phrased in a way that clearly indicates that mindfulness should be continually developed, every moment, with every movement of the body, in looking toward & looking away...
"In this way he -remains focused internally- on the body in & of itself...
when walking, standing, sitting, falling asleep, waking up, talking, & remaining silent, he makes himself fully alert.
unsustained by anything in the world." _( smile.gif )_

#4 RobertK

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 04:31 AM

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@...> wrote:
>
> Hello RobertE, RobK, all,
>
> If you are hungry, you don't say "Too bad. no control!" and starve to death. If you are hungry, you eat. If you are thirsty, you drink. If it is cold, you put on more clothing. If it is hot, then you dress lighter.
>
> When sense consciousness occurs: Will you try to react with akusala or try to react with kusala?
>
> With best wishes,
>
> Alex
>
Dear Alex
no matter one tries to react with kusala, actions are 99% or more of the time conditioned by akusala; and this is due to vast accumlations of avijja and lobha through aeons.
So one thinks "ahhhh, my daily life is full of akusala, I crave chocalate, I enjoy TV. All akusala!" Next step one decides to go a program of intense ascetism: "no more TV, chocolate or internet porn for me!" And perhaps one takes up some technique or another , sits all day, walks slolwy, focuses on feelings in the body and so on. And thus one resists these base urges and feels like real and profound changes have occured.
Much like the winner of "Biggest Loser" was recently saying about a 90kg weight loss.

The thing is though, "sense desire is obvious" not so easy to see is the attachment to rule and ritual and self view. One is/maybe increasing the hard to see attachment to self and to technique, and that is what is keeping us locked in samsara.

It take s certai amount of courge to let go of the deep attachments to silabata - and just be with what is, in order to understand even akusala.
robert