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#1 RobertK

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Posted 19 May 2006 - 12:34 PM

Every moment once it has passed has absolutely ceased according to the Theravada. However, this doesn't mean that it can't be known. If that was the case then we would be like newborn babies, only worse, and know nothing. Direct seeing should be distinguished from thinking about past events but it doesn't mean that direct seeing doesn't need sanna. Sanna arises with every citta and thus it arises also in cittas associated with panna. It is so complex how it all comes together, just for a moment, to understand. Here are some brief quotes:

QUOTE
Abhidhammattha sangaha (Anuruddha) translated as A comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma by Bhikkhu Bodhi:

Guide (note by Bodhi) p. 136

"although citta experiences objects, citta in turn can become an object. It should be noted that a citta in its immediacy cannot become an its own object, for the cognizer cannot cognize itself; but a citta in an individual mental continuum can experience earlier cittas in that same continuum as well as the cittas of other beings"

p. 137

"Mind-door cittas can also cognise an object belonging to any of the three periods of time- past present and future"

p. 138

"the Vibhavani tika explains: according to whether the cittas are sense sphere javanas, direct knowledge javanas , the remaining smile- producing javanas etc. For the sense sphere javanas...take objects of the three times[past, present, future] and timeless objects (nibbana and concepts]. The smile producing consciousness takes only objects of the three times[past, present, future]. The direct knowledge cittas take objects of the three times as well as the timeless"

p. 138

The door freed consciousness (ie. patisandhicitta, cuti citta and bhavanga citta ) "can be of six kinds: it can be any of the five sense objects, either past or present, or it can be a mental object"


best wishes

robert

#2 phil

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Posted 23 May 2006 - 01:06 AM

Hi Robert and all

" Every moment once it has passed has absolutely ceased according to the Theravada. However, this doesn't mean that it can't be known."

I think I have learned that although the object has fallen away, it is still kown as a reality (paramattha dhamma) when it is known by the following mind door process. For example, the rupa of visible object is still known as rupa by the following mind door process after it has fallen away rather than as concept. Do I have that right?

Thanks in advance.

Phil



#3 RobertK

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Posted 23 May 2006 - 05:24 AM

Dear Phil,
I think it is following mind-door processes, rather than just one process. Maybe Suan or Nina have something to add.
Robert

#4 RobertK

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Posted 10 March 2007 - 01:37 AM

http://www.lioncity....mp;#entry629008 by scott
Visuddhimagga, XIII, 111-114:

QUOTE
111. "...'Present' (paccapanna) is of three kinds, that is to say, present by moment, present by continuity, and present by extent. Herein, what has reached arising (uppaada), presence (.thitti), and dissolution (bhanga) is present by moment. What is included in one or two rounds of continuity is present by continuity.
112. "Herein, when someone goes to a well-lit place after sitting in the dark, an object is not clear at first; until it becomes clear, one or two rounds of continuity should be understood [to pass] meanwhile. And when he goes into an inner closet after going about in a well-lit place, a visible object is not immediately evident at first; until it becomes clear, one or two rounds of continuity should be understood [to pass] meanwhile. When he stands at a distance, although he sees the alterations (movements) of the hands of the washermen and the alterations (movements) of the striking of the gongs, drums, etc., yet he does not hear the sound at first...; until he hears it, one or two rounds of continuity should be understood [to pass] meanwhile. This, firstly, is according to the Majjhima reciters.
113. "The Sa"myutta reciters, however, say that there are two kinds of continuity, that is to say, material continuity and immaterial continuity: that a material continuity lasts as long as the [muddy] line of water touching the bank when one treads in the water takes to clear, as long as the heat of the body in one who has walked a certain extent takes to die down, as long as the blindness in one who has come from the sunshine into a does not depart, as long as when, after someone has been giving attention to his meditation subject in a room and then opens the shutters by day and looks out, the dazzling in his eyes does not die down; and that immaterial continuity consists in two or three rounds of impulsion. Both of these are [according to them] called 'present by continuity'.
114. "What is delimited by a single becoming (existence) is called present by extent, with reference to which it is said in the Bhaddekaratta Sutta: 'Friends, the mind and mental objects are both what is present. Consciousness is bound by desire and greed for what is present. Because consciousness is bound by desire and greed he delights in that. When he delights in that, then he is vanquished with respect to present states' (M.iii, 197).
And here 'present by continuity' is used in the Commentaries while 'present by extent' is used in the Suttas."


Visuddhimagga XIV, 187-191:

QUOTE
187. Herein, ...firstly, according to extent: in the case of single becoming of one [living being], previous rebirth linking is past, subsequent to death is future, between these two is present.
188. ...According to continuity: that [materiality] which has like or single origination by temperature and single origination by nutriment, though it occurs successively, is present. That which, previous to that, was of unlike origination by temperature and nutriment is past. That which is subsequent is future. That which is born of consciousness and has its origination in one cognitive series, in one impulsion, in one attainment, is present. Previous to that is past. Subsequent to that is future. There is no special classification into past continuity, etc., of that which has its origination in kamma, but its pastness, etc., should be understood according as it supports those which have their origination through temperature, nutriment, and consciousness.
189. ...According to period: any period among those such as one minute, morning, evening, day-and-night, etc., that occurs as a continuity, is called present. Previous to that is past. Subsequent is future.
190. ...According to moment: what is included in the trio of moments, [that is to say, arising, presence, and dissolution] beginning with arising is called present. At a time previous to that it is called future. At a time subsequent to that it is called past.
191: Furthermore, that whose functions of cause and condition have elapsed is past. That whose function of cause is finished and whose function of condition is unfinished is present. That which has not attained to either function is future. Or alternatively, the moment of the function is present. At a time previous to that it is future. At a time subsequent to that it is past.
And here only the explanations beginning with the moment are absolutely literal. The rest are in a figurative [or relative] sense."



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Posted 10 March 2007 - 03:16 PM

Dear RobM,
In the 'Greater Discourse on the Destruction of Craving' (Mahatankhasankhaya-sutta, majjhima Nikaya I, Mahayamaka-vagga):

QUOTE
It is because, monks, an appropriate condition arises that consciousness is known by this or that name: if consciousness is know by this or that name: if consciousness arises because of eye and material shapes, it is known as seeing-consciousness; if consciousness arises because of ear and sounds it is known as hearing-consciousness; if consciousness arises because of nose and smells, it is known as smelling-consciousness; if consciousness arises because of tongue and tastes, it is known as tasting- consciousness; if consciousness arises because of body and touches, it is known as tactile-consciousness; if consciousness arises because of mind and mental objects, it is known as mental consciousness.


Ya~n~nadeva1 bhikkhave paccaya.m pa.ticca uppajjati vi~n~naa.na.m tena teneva sa"nkha.m gacchati: cakkhu~nca pa.ticca ruupe ca uppajjati vi~n~naa.na.m, cakkhuvi~n~naa.nanteva sa"nkha.m gacchati. Sota~nca pa.ticca sadde ca uppajjati vi~n~naa.na.m, sotavi~n~naa.nanteva sa"nkha.m gacchati. Ghaana~nca pa.ticca gandhe ca uppajjati vi~n~naa.na.m, ghaanavi~n~naa.nanteva sa"nkha.m gacchati, jivha~nca pa.ticca rase ca uppajjati vi~n~naa.na.m, jivhaavi~n~naa.nanteva sa"nkha.m gacchati. Kaaya~nca pa.ticca pho.t.thabbe ca uppajjati vi~n~naa.na.m, kaayavi~n~naa.nantevasa"nkha.m gacchati. Mana~nca pa.ticca dhamme ca uppajjati vi~n~naa.na.m, manovi~n~naa.nanteva sa"nkha.m gacchati

You see in the suttas the Buddha was very careful to help people to see that each moment is different from the last. The eye-consciousness has different conditions than the ear consciousness. Someone, before they heard the teaching, might imagine that the same consciousness lasts and could take two or three objects at about the same time. But it can be seen that this is not so.

The sutta continues:

QUOTE
Monks, as a fire burns because of this or that appropriate condition, by that it is known: if a fire burns because of sticks, it is known as a stick-fire; and if a fire burns because of chips, it is known as a chip-fire; and if a fire burns because of grass, it is known as a grass-fire; and if a fire burns because of cowdung, it is known as a cowdung-fire ... Even so, monks, when because of a condition appropriate to it consciousness arises, it is known by this or that name ...


The commentaries stress this so much more. They explain that in the time it takes to snap a finger ..kotis of mindmoments have arisen and passed, each one not the same but conditioned by different conditions, and none of these conditions is exactly the same either.

Take a moment of seeing: For seeing to arise there must be cakkhu pasada (seeing base). This is the extremely refined rupa that arises in the center of the eye. This special rupa is the result of kamma. reason we can keep seeing is that at this moment the force of the kamma is still working to continue replacing the cakkhu pasada. The visible eye, the eyeball, and the surrounding matter, the rest of the body, are also conditioned by different conditions - not only kamma- and these rupas also only last for a moment before vanishing forever. Every conditioning factor is simarly evanescent as is every conditioned moment.

Your book by Mr. Sarachchandra, says " the Theory of moments was introduced into Abhidhamma around the twelfth century - Early Buddists texts reflect a doctrine of momentariness rather than a theory of moments - By the time of the third council, the doctrine of momentariness was common between all schools with minor technical variations; for example, the "Points of Controversy" discusses if a "moment" of consciousness lasts a whole day. Rupa was described as having two phases (nascent and cessant); the theory of moments later added the static phase."""

This 'static' phase is far from static according to the Theravada commentaries, and also the later tikas. For example The Dispeller (page 37)

QUOTE
Indeed feeling also arises and falls and has no length of duration. In the moment of one snapping of the fingers it arises and ceases to the number of one hundred thousand kotis


Note that vedana (feeling) arises and passes together with consciousness and all other mental elements.Any wordswe use to describe the nature of realities - impermanent, momentary, temporary, instant by instant- cannot convey the actual rapidity of the arising and passing away. But to explain the dhamma it is useful to use such words as 'moments' when ,say, explaining the difference between a moment of seeing and a moment of hearing.

In the Patthana - the last book of the Abhidhamma , the importance of which is greatly stressed in the commentaries and Abhidhammathasangaha is all about conditions. Here we learn that "moments" are extraordinarily complex instants in time with influences from past and present factors. The dhammas themselves are not different from the quality they posses. In fact the Atthasalini says that "there is no other thing than the quality born by it". And no moment is identical with another. It is true that such dhammas as sa~n~na (perception) or vedana (feeling) or vi~n~nana (consciouness) are classified under the same heading but the actual quality is influenced by so many diverse factiors that not even one moment of feeling is exactly the same. Also because similar conditions arise repeatedly nor are succeeding moments totally different. The same feeling can appear [and I stress appear] to last for seconds because of this. The Abhidhamma allows us to understad that this is illusion and to learn to study directly the present moment so that eventually this idea of permenance is broken.

You wrote that "Anuruddha also added material reflecting ideas that were current at his time." I don't think so. He put, in a simple way, what was already well rehearsed by generations of great monks from the time of the Buddha. Although sometimes the commentaries added extra useful material a great deal of them came from the time of the Buddha. The Atthakattha to the Dhammasangani (first book of the Abhidhamma) the Atthasalini: from the introductory discourse "The ancient commentary therof was sang By the First council, Mahakassapa Their leader, and later again by seers,

13. Yaa Mahaakassapaadiihi vaasiih'a.t.thakathaa puraa sa"ngiitaa anusa"ngiitaa pacchaa pi ca isiihi yaa

It then says:

QUOTE
Mahinda bought it to the peerless isle, Ceylon,..

RobertK

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Posted 10 March 2007 - 03:30 PM

Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 190.

Intro:

In this section the Visuddhimagga deals with moment, kha.na. Kha.na is different from the word moment as it is used in conventional language where it has a wider meaning. Whereas kha.na has a very precise meaning. It refers to the infinitesimally short moments of naama and ruupa. Citta has its arising moment, the moment of its presence and the moment of its dissolution. Ruupa lasts seventeen times longer than citta, or, if we take into account the three moments of citta, fiftyone times longer than citta. Ruupa has its arising moment, the moments of presence and the moment of its dissolution.

When a sense object impinges on a sensebase, a complete sense-door process of cittas can experience that object which has not fallen away. The cittas of a complete sense-door process and the preceding bhavanga-cittas are seventeen in number. Since ruupa lasts seventeen moments of citta it can be experienced by the cittas of a sense-door process. After it has just fallen away it is experienced through the mind-door.

The Expositor deals with many meanings of the term arisen, uppanna. We read:

QUOTE
Of these, all that is endowed with (instants of) genesis, decay, and dissolution is termed arisen as existing at the present moment.


Thus, kha.na does not refer to life period, nor to serial presence. It refers to moment in the ultimate sense,namely arising, presence, and dissolution.

-----------

Text Vis. 190:

QUOTE
(d) 'According to moment': what is included in the trio of moments, [that is to say, arising, presence, and dissolution] beginning with arising is called 'present'. At a time previous to that it is 'future'. At a time subsequent to that it is 'past'.


------------------------------

The Tiika explains that the classification according to moment, kha.na is according to time (kala).

The translator Pe Maung Tin repeats the words of the Tiika.

QUOTE
"At a time previous to that it is 'future': Because it has not yet arisen, or arrived at the three moments.Therefore it is still future, it will come into being."


The Tiika adds to 'At a time subsequent to that it is past': that this is to be taken literally. It is past when it has passed through the three moments of arising, presence and dissolution.

We read in the Dispeller of Delusion (p. 8):

QUOTE
And here only the exposition beginning with the moment (kha.na) is literal (nippariyaaya) (cf. M.A. I, 89). The rest are figurative (sapariyaaya).


Conclusion: When we consider the meaning of kha.na, moment, we are reminded that the processes of cittas succeed one another extremely rapidly. In one process seeing arises, and it seems that we immediately think of a concept of what is seen, of a person or thing. However, several processes have elapsed before a concept is experienced in a mind-door process. There is no person who can exert control over the cittas that arise, perform each their own function and then fall away immediately. Cittas succeed one another in a series. We read in the Expositor (p. 149) that connecting, sandahana, is the manifestation of citta:

QUOTE
The consciousness which arises next does so immediately after the preceding consciousness, forming a connected series. Thus it has connecting as manifestation.


It seems that cittas last, but the meaning of kha.na, moment, reminds us of the impermanence of dhammas. As soon as a dhamma has arisen, it is going towards its cessation, it is gone immediately. When pa~n~naa arises it does so for an extremely short moment and then it falls away. However, a moment of pa~n~naa is never lost, it is accumulated so that there are conditions for its arising again. This exhorts us not to waste the moments of which our life consists. There can be accumulation of pa~n~naa at this moment.

Summarizing the four aspects according to which ruupa can be seen as past, future and present: according to (i) extent (addhaa), (ii) continuity (santati), (iii) period (samaya) and (iv) moment (kha.na). Thus, the first three are figurative and the last one is literal.

******
Nina.

#7 RobertK

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 09:05 AM

Visuddhimagga, XIII, 111-114:

QUOTE
111. "...'Present' (paccapanna) is of three kinds, that is to say, present by moment, present by continuity, and present by extent. Herein, what has reached arising (uppaada), presence (.thitti), and dissolution (bhanga) is present by moment. What is included in one or two rounds of continuity is present by continuity.
112. "Herein, when someone goes to a well-lit place after sitting in the dark, an object is not clear at first; until it becomes clear, one or two rounds of continuity should be understood [to pass] meanwhile. And when he goes into an inner closet after going about in a well-lit place, a visible object is not immediately evident at first; until it becomes clear, one or two rounds of continuity should be understood [to pass] meanwhile. When he stands at a distance, although he sees the alterations (movements) of the hands of the washermen and the alterations (movements) of the striking of the gongs, drums, etc., yet he does not hear the sound at first...; until he hears it, one or two rounds of continuity should be understood [to pass] meanwhile. This, firstly, is according to the Majjhima reciters.
113. "The Sa"myutta reciters, however, say that there are two kinds of continuity, that is to say, material continuity and immaterial continuity: that a material continuity lasts as long as the [muddy] line of water touching the bank when one treads in the water takes to clear, as long as the heat of the body in one who has walked a certain extent takes to die down, as long as the blindness in one who has come from the sunshine into a does not depart, as long as when, after someone has been giving attention to his meditation subject in a room and then opens the shutters by day and looks out, the dazzling in his eyes does not die down; and that immaterial continuity consists in two or three rounds of impulsion. Both of these are [according to them] called 'present by continuity'.
114. "What is delimited by a single becoming (existence) is called present by extent, with reference to which it is said in the Bhaddekaratta Sutta: 'Friends, the mind and mental objects are both what is present. Consciousness is bound by desire and greed for what is present. Because consciousness is bound by desire and greed he delights in that. When he delights in that, then he is vanquished with respect to present states' (M.iii, 197).
And here 'present by continuity' is used in the Commentaries while 'present by extent' is used in the Suttas."


Visuddhimagga XIV, 187-191:

QUOTE
187. Herein, ...firstly, according to extent: in the case of single becoming of one [living being], previous rebirth linking is past, subsequent to death is future, between these two is present.
188. ...According to continuity: that [materiality] which has like or single origination by temperature and single origination by nutriment, though it occurs successively, is present. That which, previous to that, was of unlike origination by temperature and nutriment is past. That which is subsequent is future. That which is born of consciousness and has its origination in one cognitive series, in one impulsion, in one attainment, is present. Previous to that is past. Subsequent to that is future. There is no special classification into past continuity, etc., of that which has its origination in kamma, but its pastness, etc., should be understood according as it supports those which have their origination through temperature, nutriment, and consciousness.
189. ...According to period: any period among those such as one minute, morning, evening, day-and-night, etc., that occurs as a continuity, is called present. Previous to that is past. Subsequent is future.
190. ...According to moment: what is included in the trio of moments, [that is to say, arising, presence, and dissolution] beginning with arising is called present. At a time previous to that it is called future. At a time subsequent to that it is called past.
191: Furthermore, that whose functions of cause and condition have elapsed is past. That whose function of cause is finished and whose function of condition is unfinished is present. That which has not attained to either function is future. Or alternatively, the moment of the function is present. At a time previous to that it is future. At a time subsequent to that it is past.
And here only the explanations beginning with the moment are absolutely literal. The rest are in a figurative [or relative] sense."
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#8 RobertK

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 12:50 PM

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#9 RobertK

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 02:17 PM

SN 1.11 Nandana
Translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi

http://suttacentral.net/sn1.11/en/

Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Savatthi in Jeta’s Grove, Anathapiṇḍika’s Park. There the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus thus: “Bhikkhus!”

“Venerable sir!” those bhikkhus replied. The Blessed One said this:

“Once in the past, bhikkhus, a certain devata of the Tavatiṃsa host was revelling in Nandana Grove, < 11 > supplied and endowed with the five cords of celestial sensual pleasure, accompanied by a retinue of celestial nymphs. On that occasion he spoke this verse:

“‘They do not know bliss
Who have not seen Nandana,
The abode of the glorious male devas
Belonging to the host of Thirty.’ [19]
“When this was said, bhikkhus, a certain devata replied to that devata in verse:

“‘Don’t you know, you fool,
That maxim of the arahants?
Impermanent are all formations;
Their nature is to arise and vanish.
Having arisen, they cease:
Their appeasement is blissful.’” [20]

Notes

[19] Tāvatiṃsa, “the realm of the thirty-three,” is the third sense-sphere heaven. It is so named because thirty-three youths, headed by the youth Magha, had been reborn here as a result of their meritorious deeds. Magha himself became Sakka, ruler of the devas. Nandana is the Garden of Delight in Tāvatiṃsa, so called because it gives delight and joy to anyone who enters it. According to Spk, this deva had just taken rebirth into this heaven and, while wandering through the Nandana Grove, he spoke the verse as a spontaneous paean of joy over his celestial glory. Spk glosses naradevānaṃ with devapurisānaṃ, “devamales”; it is clearly not a dvanda compound. Tidasa, “the Thirty” (lit. “triple ten”), is a poetic epithet for Tāvatiṃsa.

[20] Spk ascribes this rejoinder to a female deva who was a noble disciple (ariyasāvikā). Thinking, “This foolish deva imagines his glory to be permanent and unchanging, unaware that it is subject to cutting off, perishing, and dissolution,” she spoke her stanza in order to dispel his delusion. The “maxim of the arahants” is pronounced by the Buddha at 15:20 (II 193, also at DN II 199,6-7); the deva-king Sakka repeats it on the occasion of the Buddha’s parinibbāna (see v. 609). The first line usually reads aniccā vata saṅkhārā rather than, as here, aniccā sabbasaṅkhārā. An identical exchange of verses occurs below at 9:6, with the goddess Jālinı̄ and the Venerable Anuruddha as speakers. The feminine vocative bāle in pāda b implies that the latter dialogue was the original provenance of the verse, or in any case that the first devatā is female.

Spk: Formations here are all formations of the three planes of existence (sabbe tebhūmakasaṅkhārā), which are impermanent in the sense that they become nonexistent after having come to be (hutvā abhāvaṭṭhena aniccā). Their appeasement is blissful (tesaṃ vūpasamo sukho): Nibbāna itself, called the appeasement of those formations, is blissful.