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Abhidhamma is needed for right view?


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#1 RobertK

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Posted 08 July 2006 - 03:49 AM

QUOTE
In fact I am gratefull to both of them. - and at the sama time disappointed that after such clear words as in the Paramatthaka Sutta, or the Chanki Sutta, these persons claim their own path the only true one.


Dear Wolfgang,
When the Paramatthaka sutta uses the word ditthi (view) it means wrong view. This thread has more detail.
http://www.abhidhamm...p?showtopic=145


On other occasions the Buddha was very clear that right view is RIGHT.
Consider this sutta:
 

QUOTE
Majjhima Nikàya I
2. 1. Cålasãhanàdasuttaü
(11) A Minor Lion's Roar

I heard thus.

At one time the Blessed One lived in the monastery offered by Anàthapiõóika in Jeta's grove in Sàvatthi. The Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus from there.

Bhikkhus, it's only in this dispensation, that there is a recluse. A second recluse. A third recluse and a fourth recluse. Other faiths are devoid of recluses and devoid of the perfect. Thus the lion's roar could be rightfully roared.

Robert



#2 Wolfgang

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Posted 08 July 2006 - 01:21 PM

Dear Robert,

QUOTE(RobertK @ Jul 8 2006, 05:49 AM) View Post

Dear Wolfgang,
When the Paramatthaka sutta uses the word ditthi (view) it means wrong view.
On other occasions the Buddha was very clear that right view is RIGHT.
Robert

are you saying - in our context - that Sukin has right view when she claims to know not one, from the practice traditions, to have right view?

Are you saying I should abstain pointing out to Sukin that she better stop such generalizations, because only one like the Buddha could know?

Are you saying here I am the only one with wrong view, and only those who studied Abhidhamma have it right?

All that would be implied in the way you now present these very Suttas!

regards,

Wolfgang


#3 RobertK

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Posted 08 July 2006 - 01:41 PM

QUOTE(Wolfgang @ Jul 8 2006, 10:21 PM) View Post

Dear Robert,
are you saying - in our context - that Sukin has right view when she claims to know not one, from the practice traditions, to have right view?

Are you saying I should abstain pointing out to Sukin that she better stop such generalizations, because only one like the Buddha could know?

Are you saying here I am the only one with wrong view, and only those who studied Abhidhamma have it right?

All that would be implied in the way you now present these very Suttas!

regards,

Wolfgang


Dear Wolfgang
I think my post was explaining some sutta quotes, not about any comment sukinder made.
Nevertheless, surely Abhidhamma is the Buddha's word, it is part of the Tipitaka.
Robert
p.s Sukinder is a man with a full black beard.

#4 Wolfgang

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Posted 08 July 2006 - 02:07 PM

QUOTE(RobertK @ Jul 8 2006, 03:41 PM) View Post

p.s Sukinder is a man with a full black beard.

Oops... blink.gif Sorry Sukinder, I was mistaken.

QUOTE(RobertK @ Jul 8 2006, 03:41 PM) View Post

Nevertheless, surely Abhidhamma is the Buddha's word, it is part of the Tipitaka.
Robert


So that means that you believe those who studied Abhidhamma are those with the right view?

And those who studied the Sutta and 'only' practiced cannot have it?

regards,

Wolfgang

#5 RobertK

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Posted 08 July 2006 - 02:19 PM

QUOTE(Wolfgang @ Jul 8 2006, 11:07 PM) View Post


So that means that you believe those who studied Abhidhamma are those with the right view?

And those who studied the Sutta and 'only' practiced cannot have it?

regards,

Wolfgang

Dear Wolfgang,

My brief comment is that I agree with
Sitagu Sayadaw
QUOTE

http://www.abhidhamm...agu sayadaw.htm
Since Vipassana meditation takes the Abhidhamma as its sole object of contemplation, Vipassana and Abhidhamma cannot be separated. And while it may not be said that one can practice Vipassana only after one has mastered the Abhidhamma, Vipassana meditation and the study of Abhidhamma remain one and the same thing. Because mind, mental factors and matter are forever bound up with this fathom-long body, the study and learning of this subject, and the concentrated observation of the nature of mind, mental factors and matter are tasks which cannot be distinguished.
Since at the very least one would have to say that there can be no Vipassana without an understanding of mind and matter, surely then it is not possible to separate Abhidhamma and Vipassana.

Robert

#6 Wolfgang

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Posted 08 July 2006 - 02:38 PM

QUOTE(RobertK @ Jul 8 2006, 04:19 PM) View Post

My brief comment is that I agree with
Sitagu Sayadaw

Robert


Dear Robert,

during my time in Burma I visited and paid my respect and talked to Venerable Sitagu Sayadaw. At his monastery in Sagaing - Anapana is the method practiced. I mention this because you seem to avoid my question.

Can one by the study of the Sutta, in your opinion, not arrive at right view? In other words, using your terminology, there is not also Abhidhamma taught in the Sutta, to some extent?
(I am already aware that Abhidhamma is right view for you, but my question was to the effect, that Study of Abhidhamma not automaticaly conditions 'right view'. Which would be implied by your cyptic answer)

I would really appreciate a straightforward answer.

Kind regard,

Wolfgang

#7 sukin

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Posted 10 July 2006 - 04:28 AM

QUOTE(Wolfgang @ Jul 8 2006, 08:21 PM) View Post

Dear Robert,
are you saying - in our context - that Sukin has right view when she claims to know not one, from the practice traditions, to have right view?

Are you saying I should abstain pointing out to Sukin that she better stop such generalizations, because only one like the Buddha could know?

Are you saying here I am the only one with wrong view, and only those who studied Abhidhamma have it right?

All that would be implied in the way you now present these very Suttas!

regards,

Wolfgang


Dear Wolfgang,

One clarification.

What I suggested was regarding those who rely on the Suttas and *deny* the Abhidhamma. The implication of this is that, as I understand the Dhamma to be, there is no contradiction between Sutta and Abhidhamma. Therefore if someone denies the Abhidhamma, then according to me, that person doesn’t understand the Dhamma as I understand it, therefore from my perspective, wrong. And this relates to my other statement about relying on the Sutta alone demands much greater power of discrimination than with Abhidhamma help.

Also when I said that I have not found one single person relying on the Sutta alone to have right view, I mean exactly ‘my experience’, and not including others, whom I have never met, read or heard.

Metta,

Sukin


#8 RobertK

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 05:14 AM

Dear Wolfgang,
It is not certain that study of Abhidhamma is absolutely needed for the development of right view. But I think to come to right view is so important that any help we can get should be welcomed. Abhidhamma has one flavour, that of anatta, so when studied in the right way it supports rightview, helps it to blossom.

Sometimes people give the example of monks who were able to become arahants simply by listening to a sentence from a sutta. These type of arahants are called Ugghatitannu : an individual who encounters a Buddha in person, and who is capable of attaining the Holy Paths and the Holy Fruits through the mere hearing of a short concise discourse.
See this sutta

http://www.metta.lk/...aka/4Anguttara-
Nikaya/Anguttara2/4-catukanipata/012-kesivaggo-e.htm

As I suggested on this other thread
http://www.abhidhamm...hp?showtopic=29
we, at this time, are not like those great ones. It is difficult for beings of this age to understand Dhamma and so we should really welcome any help.

Moreover I believe if anyone was genuinely developing rightview they would recognize that the Abhidhamma was profound and worthy. Some might not be inclined to study it much, but at least they would see that Suttanta and Abhiddhamma are in agreement (as Sukinder said).

Also in the Commentary to the Atthasalini it says that those who study Suttanta wrongly may come to wrongview. This is because the suttas use conventional language (he, she, I, person etc). So the Abhidhamma is a protection against reading Suttas through the lens of selfview.
Robert