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Impermanence


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#1 RobertK

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Posted 11 May 2006 - 02:10 PM

QUOTE
Bodhi page 770 note 156 Nidanvagga samyutta nikaya

Because this body is seen standing for a 100 years or even longer

SPK(Query) Why does the Blessed one say this? Isn't it true that the physical form present in the first period of life doen't last through to the middle period, and the form present in the middle period does not last through to the last period?..Isn't it true that formations break up right on the spot, stage by stage, section by section, just as sesame seeds pop when thrown on a hot pan? (Reply) this is true but the body is said to endure for a long time in continuous sequence (pavenivasena) just as a lamp is said to to burn all night as a connected continuity (pavenisambandhavasena) even though the flame ceases right where it burns without passing over to the next section of the wick.


#2 phil

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Posted 12 May 2006 - 11:05 AM

Hello group

"this is true but the body is said to endure for a long time in continuous sequence (pavenivasena) just as a lamp is said to to burn all night as a connected continuity"

Is this because of contiguity condition? Or a combination of several paccayas? Does kamma condition give rise to rupa in a very continuous way as well?

Thanks in advance.


Phil



#3 RobertK

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Posted 12 May 2006 - 01:27 PM

Dear Phil
Rupa is not conditioned by samanantara-paccaya(contiguity condition). Rupas in things like rocks keep re-arising due to temperature. Each kalapa of rupa has tejo dhatu(heat element) as one of the eight inseperables and this tejodhatu can be a cause for more rupa. Thus there is continuity but not in the the same way as for mentality.

Because there is continuity for both mentality and materiality the fact of rise and fall is obscured , like a magicians trick.

RobertK

#4 Guest_Scott Duncan_*

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Posted 13 May 2006 - 03:49 AM

Dear Robert, Phil, All,

Regarding the terms "pavenivasana" and "pavenisambandhavasena:"

These are rendered "continuous sequence" and "connected continuity." Can you please compare and contrast these phrases? They seem synonymous at first glance but then, if I think about it (too much likely) they seem different. Before I get too far, may I hear a little more please?

Sincerely,

Scott.

#5 RobertK

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Posted 13 May 2006 - 04:50 AM

Ha. A bit beyond my elementary pali skills Scott. Nina Suan (Abhidhammika) or Yenerable Yuttadhammo or Venerable Pandita could probably explain.
It is a good question, I might ask it on Pali list.
Robert

#6 phil

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Posted 13 May 2006 - 11:28 AM


Hi all

"Because there is continuity for both mentality and materiality the fact of rise and fall is obscured , like a magicians trick."


There is a very helpful bit in the talks with Acharn Sujin in which she refers to a term, in Thai, that means the way concepts of posture obscure the awareness of rise and fall. Sounds like "perk ilyabot." Nina explained it to me at DSG but I forget now. The first quote in the "Be Here Now" thread gets at the way we can come to understand the dhammas that underlie sitting (and other postures)



Phil

#7 Abhidhammika

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Posted 15 May 2006 - 03:50 PM

QUOTE(Scott Duncan @ May 13 2006, 03:49 AM) View Post

Dear Robert, Phil, All,

Regarding the terms "pavenivasana" and "pavenisambandhavasena:"

These are rendered "continuous sequence" and "connected continuity." Can you please compare and contrast these phrases? They seem synonymous at first glance but then, if I think about it (too much likely) they seem different. Before I get too far, may I hear a little more please?

Sincerely,

Scott.



Dear Scott, Phil, Robert K, Mike N, Nina and all

How are you?

When we look at the two phrases paveºisambandhavasena and paveºivasena in their commentary paragraph, they convey the same sense. This is confirmed by the subcommentary's interpretation.

Yath± pana pad²passa jalato j±t± ta½ ta½ vaµµippadesa½ anatikkamitv± tattha tattheva bhijjati, atha ca pana paveºisambandhavasena sabbaratti½ jalito pad²poti vuccati, evamidh±pi paveºivasena ayampi k±yo eva½ ciraµµhitiko viya katv± dassito. Section 61, Assutav±suttavaººan±, Nid±nasa½yutta½

In the flame simile, through serial linking, the flame appears to us as the same burning flame. As the flame burns, so is this body also shown to appear as if existing for a long time through serial arisings. Here we notice that the serial linking responsible for the events of the flame matches with the serial arisings responsible for the events of the body. Thus, we can equate the serial linking with the serial arisings. This is exactly what the subcommentary on this suttam does.

Paveºisambandhavasen±ti santativasena. Section 61, Assutav±suttavaººan±, Nid±navaggaµ²k±

The expression 'through serial linking' refers to 'through serial arisings'.

I hope that the above solves Scott's puzzle.

Sayadaws Ashin Pandita, Dhammanando, Pesala, and Yutthadhammo could add their suggestions as well.


With regards,

Suan Lu Zaw


#8 Guest_Scott Duncan_*

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Posted 16 May 2006 - 03:17 AM

QUOTE(Abhidhammika @ May 15 2006, 09:50 AM) View Post

The expression 'through serial linking' refers to 'through serial arisings'.
I hope that the above solves Scott's puzzle.

Dear Suan,

Thank you for your careful response. Puzzle solved!

Sincerely,

Scott.

#9 RobertK

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 11:18 AM

Guhatthaka-suttaniddeso
(Exposition of the Sutta of the Eightfold Mystery)

Translated by Andrew Olendzki.
http://www.accesstoi.../sutta/khuddaka

Spoken by Ayusmat Sariputta.

1. "Life, personhood, pleasure and pain
- This is all that's bound together
In a single mental event
- A moment that quickly takes place.

2. Even for the devas who endure
For 84,000 thousand kalpas
- Even those do not live the same
For any two moments of the mind.

3. What ceases for one who is dead,
Or for one who's still standing here,
Are all just the same heaps
- Gone, never to connect again.

4. The states which are vanishing now,
And those which will vanish some day,
Have characteristics no different
Than those which have vanished before.

5. With no production there's no birth;
With "becoming" present, one exists.
When grasped with the highest meaning,
The world is dead when the mind stops.

6. There's no hoarding what has vanished,
No piling up for the future;
Those who have been born are standing
Like a seed upon a needle.

7. The vanishing of all these states
That have become is not welcome,
Though dissolving phenomena stand
Uncombined through primordial time.

8. From the unseen, things come and go.
Glimpsed only as they're passing by;
Like lightning flashing in the sky
- They arise and then pass away."

Kathaṃ ṭhitiparittatāya appakaṃ jīvitaṃ? Atīte cittakkhaṇe jīvittha,
na jīvati na jīvissati; anāgate cittakkhaṇe jīvissati, na jīvati na jīvittha; paccuppanne cittakkhaṇe jīvati, na jīvittha na jīvissati.

“Jīvitaṃ attabhāvo ca, sukhadukkhā ca kevalā;
ekacittasamāyuttā, lahuso vattate khaṇo.
“Cullāsītisahassāni, kappā tiṭṭhanti ye marū;
natveva tepi jīvanti, dvīhi cittehi saṃyutā.
“Ye niruddhā marantassa, tiṭṭhamānassa vā idha;
sabbepi sadisā khandhā, gatā appaṭisandhikā.
“Anantarā ca ye bhaggā, ye ca bhaggā anāgatā;
tadantare niruddhānaṃ, vesamaṃ natthi lakkhaṇe.
“Anibbattena na jāto, paccuppannena jīvati;
cittabhaggā mato loko, paññatti paramatthiyā.
“Yathā ninnā pavattanti, chandena pariṇāmitā;
acchinnadhārā vattanti, saḷāyatanapaccayā.
“Anidhānagatā bhaggā, puñjo natthi anāgate;
nibbattā ye ca tiṭṭhanti, āragge sāsapūpamā.
“Nibbattānañca dhammānaṃ, bhaṅgo nesaṃ purakkhato;
palokadhammā tiṭṭhanti, purāṇehi amissitā.
“Adassanato āyanti, bhaṅgā gacchanti dassanaṃ;
vijjuppādova ākāse, uppajjanti vayanti cā”ti.

Evaṃ ṭhitiparittatāya appakaṃ jīvitaṃ.