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#1 RobertK

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Posted 18 June 2006 - 03:22 AM

Dear Stephen

You write:

QUOTE
There's no self but that doesn't entail there's no control. In the first place lets note that if we don't control our intentions (kamma) then their resultants (vipaka) are completely amoral; this is no different from just saying there are laws of physics which are completely indifferent to human behavior."""


This is a somewhat confusing way of putting it. In the deepest sense there are no human beings. Human being, self, robert, stephen are only designations that we need to refer to different streams of changing, conditioned, mentality and materiality. You say "if we dont control our intentions then the resultants are completly amoral".

Could I ask what you mean by "we" in the above sentence? Kamma will produce its results whether "we" think the results are amoral or moral, and some actions must produce unpleasant results, while some must produce pleasant ones.

Thinking about the anattaness and uncontrollabilty of phenomena could make one more 'amoral' but that would only be because there was no correct understanding of how every moment conditions other moments. It is only direct insight into the actual phenomena that really understands anatta. This insight can only take one dhamma, one incredibly brief instant in time as an object and so it takes such a long time for insight to develop. This sort of insight must mean that sensitivity and care grow- every moment is important, is a microlifetime.

People in the Buddhas time doubted anatta too. They intuitively thought that somewhere there was a "they" that had freewill. But which part of the khandas is controllable?

QUOTE
Majjhima Nikaaya I. 4. 5 Cuulasaccakasutta.m- (35 ) The Shorter Discourse to Saccaka.
.Saccaka the son of Nigan.tha then said thus to the Blessed One. We would ask a certain question from good Gotama. If good Gotama would give us leave and would explain it to us. The Blessed One said, ask Aggivessana what you desire.How does good Gotama advise the disciples and in what sections are they given much training? Aggivessana, I advise and train my disciple much in this manner.... ", ...All things are not self. " ....

[Aggivessana disagreed]

..Aggivessana, you that say, matter is your self, do you wield power over that matter, as may my matter be thus, and not otherwise? .No, good Gotama. Attend carefully and reply Aggivessana. What you said earlier does not agree with what you say now. Aggivessana, you that say, feelings are your self, do you wield power over those feelings, as may my feelings be thus, and not otherwise? No, good Gotama. .Attend carefully and reply Aggivessana. What you said earlier does not agree with what you say now. Aggivessana, you that say, perceptions are your self, do you wield power over those perceptions, as may my perceptions be thus and not otherwise? No, good Gotama. Attend carefully and reply Aggivessana. What you said earlier, does not agree with what you say now.. Aggivessana, you, that say, determinations are your self, do you wield power over those determinations, as may my determinations be thus and not otherwise. No, good Gotama. Attend carefully and reply Aggivessana. What you said earlier does not agree with what you say now. Aggivessana, you, that say, consciousness is your self, do you wield power over that consciousness, as may my consciousness be thus and not otherwise? No, good Gotama. Attend carefully and reply Aggivessana. What you said earlier does not agree with what you say now. ..


"We " like to think that we have freewill and that we can choose to do good. But then who would not chose to have metta (friendliness) at every moment to everyone? But metta is a conditioned phenomena that only arises when conditions are right. Or why not choose to be always fearless, never nervous. Even we are in a plane crash why not just choose to be perfectly unworried? In fact fearlessness comes about from seeing into anatta and uncontrollabilty as one is wearing away the idea of a self who suffers, "who" needs protection; it erases the idea of a body that is under anyones control. Death seems as natural as life, and indeed death is happening with the ceasing of every moment - no one who can stop it happening.

best wishes
robert

#2 Piotr

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Posted 18 June 2006 - 08:46 AM

Dear Robert,

thank you for your post. But shouldn't we note that: eye, ear, nose, tongue, body & mind are old kamma, and there is nothing that we can do about it. But whatever is done by body, speach & mind is new kamma, and even though it is conditioned in some way, there is an element of free-will in here? If not, how there can be any way to get out of this cycle? As the Blessed One said:

QUOTE
"Monks, for anyone who says, 'In whatever way a person makes kamma, that is how it is experienced,' there is no living of the holy life, there is no opportunity for the right ending of stress. But for anyone who says, 'When a person makes kamma to be felt in such & such a way, that is how its result is experienced,' there is the living of the holy life, there is the opportunity for the right ending of stress. - AN 3.99


Metta,
Piotr

PS.

QUOTE
Could I ask what you mean by "we" in the above sentence?


Isn't it unskillful question to ask?

#3 RobertK

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Posted 18 June 2006 - 10:18 AM

QUOTE(Piotr @ Jun 18 2006, 05:46 PM) View Post

Dear Robert,

thank you for your post. But shouldn't we note that: eye, ear, nose, tongue, body & mind are old kamma, and there is nothing that we can do about it. But whatever is done by body, speach & mind is new kamma, and even though it is conditioned in some way, there is an element of free-will in here? If not, how there can be any way to get out of this cycle? As the Blessed One said:
Metta,
Piotr

PS.
Isn't it unskillful question to ask?

Dear Piotr,
Thanks for your post. Have a look at this thread about freewill.
http://www.abhidhamm...hp?showtopic=68

In the meantime: All dhammas are arising and passing very fast indeed, very uncontrollable.
Here is a quote from the Burmese Abhidhamma teacher Thein Nyun in his preface to the DhatuKathu (PTS) xxvii

"Because the functions of the elements give rise to the concepts of continuity, collection and form, the ideas arise:

1)the initial effort that has to be exerted when a deed is about to be performed and

2) the care that has to be taken while the deed is being performed to its completion and this leads to the subsequent ideas

3)"I can perform" and

4) "I can feel".


Thus these four imaginary characteristic functions of being have bought about a deep-rooted belief in their existence.But the elements have not the time or span of duration to carry out such functions" (endquote Thein Nyun)


Robert
Not sure why it is unskillful to ask?

#4 RobertK

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Posted 23 July 2006 - 09:58 AM

"yuzhonghao" <victoryu@s...> wrote:
Robert,

How did you deduce that "there is no self" from "all phenomenona are not self"? What is your assumption that lead to the conclusion that "there is no self"? Examine your reasoning very closely.

Regards,
Victor
____________________

Dear Victor,

I guess because since the Buddha said that "all phenomena are not self" it seems a fairly encompassing statement. As Ken Howard indicated, if we take what are only evansescent compounded phenomena as a whole-without insighting the different phenomena ; then it seems as though there is really a self and people who exist for a minute or an hour or a day or a hundred years. It is by insighting these actual momentary elements, all of which conditioned in various complex ways, that the idea of a whole and a self is worn away.

The Sammohavinodani (commentary to the Vibhanga )Ayatanavibhanga:

QUOTE
"Naanaadhaatuyo vinibbhujitvaa ghanavinibbhoge kate anattalakkha.na.m yaathaavasarasato upa.t.thaati""

When resolving of the compact (ghanavinibbhoge) is effected by resolution of the various elements (Naanaadhaatuyo), the characteristic of no-self appears in accordance with its true essential nature (yaathaavasarasato). (translation by nanamoli et al p60)



<http://www.accesstoi.../sn35-205.html>

QUOTE
Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.205
Vina Sutta
The Lute
"Suppose there were a king or king's minister who had never heard the sound of a lute before. He might hear the sound of a lute and say, 'What, my good men, is that sound -- so delightful, so tantalizing, so intoxicating, so ravishing, so enthralling?' They would say, 'That, sire, is called a lute, whose sound is so delightful, so tantalizing, so intoxicating, so ravishing, so enthralling.' Then he would say, 'Go & fetch me that lute.' They would fetch the lute and say, 'Here, sire, is the lute whose sound is so delightful, so tantalizing, so intoxicating, so ravishing, so enthralling.' He would say, 'Enough of your lute. Fetch me just the sound.' Then they would say, 'This lute, sire, is made of numerous components, a great many components. It's through the activity of numerous components that it sounds: that is, in dependence on the body, the skin, the neck, the frame, the strings, the bridge, and the appropriate human effort. Thus it is that this lute -- made of numerous components, a great many components -- sounds through the activity of numerous components.' "Then the king would split the lute into ten pieces, a hundred pieces. Having split the lute into ten pieces, a hundred pieces, he would shave it to splinters. Having shaved it to splinters, he would burn it in a fire. Having burned it in a fire, he would reduce it to ashes. Having reduced it to ashes, he would winnow it before a high wind or let it be washed away by a swift-flowing stream. He would then say, 'A sorry thing, this lute -- whatever a lute may be -- by which people have been so thoroughly tricked & deceived.' "In the same way, a monk investigates form, however far form may go. He investigates feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness, however far consciousness may go. As he is investigating form... feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness, however far consciousness may go, any thoughts of 'me' or 'mine' or 'I am' do not occur to him."


AND

QUOTE
Vajira Sutta BhikkuniSamyutta
Vajira
Then the bhikkhuni Vajira, having understood, "This is Mara the Evil One," replied to him in verses: "Why now do you assume 'a being'? Mara, have you grasped a view? This is a heap of sheer constructions: Here no being is found. Just as, with an assemblage of parts, The word 'chariot' is used, So, when the aggregates are present, There's the convention 'a being.' It's only suffering that comes to be, Suffering that stands and falls away. Nothing but suffering comes to be, Nothing but suffering ceases."


<http://www.accesstoi...sn05-010a.html>


best wishes
robert

#5 RobertK

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Posted 23 July 2006 - 09:59 AM

It is like the Visuddhimagga says (xvii312)

QUOTE
"The absence of interestedness on the part of ignorance, such as 'Formations [sankhara] must be made to occur by me, or on the part of formations, such as 'vinnana must be made to ocur by us'. One who sees this rightly abandons self view by understanding the absence of a maker."


We are persistently fooled into thinking that there is a self who decides and directs. It helps us see that there is really no self when the commentaries further define any dhamma by means of lakkhana (characteristic), rasa (function), paccupatthana (the way it presents itself) and its padatthana (proximate cause). Bodhi in CMA (p. 29) gives the example of citta:

QUOTE
"Its characteristic is the knowing of an object. Its function is to be a forerunner of the mental factors in that it presides over them, and is always accompanied by them.Its manisfestation is as a continuity of processes.Its proximate cause is nama and rupa because consciousness cannot arise in the absence of mental and material factors."


Just as an aside on what 'knowing' means, the Visuddhimagga (xiv4 ):

QUOTE
"consciousness knows the objects as blue or yellow, and it brings about penetration of its characteristics, but it cannot bring about, by endeavouring, the manisfestation of the path. Understanding (panna) knows the object in the way stated, and it brings about by endeavouring, the manifestation of the path."


This perhaps ties up with your excellent series on silabataparamasa; as you indicated this is actually an aspect of wrong view, it is not the action per se that is the clinging to rule and ritual but the wrong view that feels one is somehow controlling and directing the various khandas. In the quote from the visuddhimagga we see that citta(without panna) can know the characteristic of dhammas, it can perceive subtle feelings colours, sounds, hardness, heat - but if panna is not present nothing is gained, one may be developing silabataparamasa.

I was also interested in your comment that "...the 'no control' aspect is interesting and useful in some contexts, but it is not the same thing as anatta, and I don't think it's quite right".

I think everyone sees different aspects of the teaching so for me the no-control aspect seems a crucial aspect of anatta.

QUOTE
"Those same five aggregates are anatta because of the words 'what is painful is no self' Why? Because there is no exercising power over them. The mode of insusceptibilty to having power exercised over them is the characteristic of anatta"

Yam dukkham tam anatta"ti pana vacanato tadeva khandhapañcakam anatta. Kasma? Avasavattanato; avasavattanakaro anattalakkhanam (sammohavinodani p60( dispeller of delusion).


It continues:

QUOTE
"that is why the impermanent, the painful and the not-self are one thing and the characteristics of impermanence, pain and no-self are another . For that which consists of the five aggregates, the twevlebases, the eigthteen elements is all impermanent, painful and no- self; the modes of alteration of the kind aforesaid are thecharacteristics of impermanence, pain and no-self."


best wishes
robert

#6 RobertK

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Posted 28 July 2006 - 01:22 AM

http://www.lioncity....p...st&p=384718

QUOTE
"This is how he attends inappropriately: ... Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'

"As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true & established, or the view I have no self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self ... This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views."


The correct view is that there is no self. Whether one should teach this to others or not might be up for debate, but the truth of it is not. Right view is so important, the Lord Buddha placed it at the front of the eightfold noble path. As long as one holds to self in this or that, one still has wrong view. The very notion of I that exists in "I have no self", is already view of personality (sakkaayaditthi), and makes one stuck in a thicket, etc.

To say, on the other hand, that one could get stuck on such a view as "there is no self" doesn't make any sense, unless it is based on the idea that there once was a self in the past. The view of non-self frees the mind from any attachment internally or externally. It is, of course, possible that one might get caught up in pondering or fretting over the non-existence of self and miss the point, but that is not due to wrong view, it is due to wrong attention (ayoniso manasikara):

QUOTE
That opinion of theirs is based only on the personal sensations, on the worry and writhing consequent thereon, of those venerable recluses and Brahmans, who know not, neither perceive, and are subject to all kinds of craving:

45 foll. [41, 42] 'Those opinions of theirs are therefore based upon contact (through the senses).

58 foll. [43] 'That they should experience those sensations without such contact, such a condition of things could not be.

71. [44] 'They, all of them, receive those sensations through continual contact in the spheres of touch. To them on account of the sensations arises craving, on account of the craving arises the fuel (that is, the necessary condition, the food, the basis, of future lives). from the fuel results becoming, from the tendency to become arises rebirth, and from rebirth comes death, and grief, lamentation, pain, sorrow, and despair. It is, brethren, when a brother understands, as they really are, the origin and the end, the attraction, the danger, and the way of escape from the six realms of contact, that he gets to know what is above, beyond, them all.

Source: Dialogues of the Buddha (Rhys-Davids, Trans.)


The view "there is no self" does not fall into this category as it is free from the problems that a view of self holds.

Purification of view is most important for anyone starting out on the path to enlightenment. If one has wrong view from the start, one should be expected to undertake wrong practice. If one undertakes wrong practice, wrong knowledge and wrong release will follow. It is most important that one set on freedom from the rounds of rebirth should be clear from the start that all of the things inside of oneself and everything else in the world is void of a self.

Best wishes,

Yuttadhammo

#7 RobertK

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Posted 28 July 2006 - 06:14 AM

QUOTE
"There is no doer of a deed, or one who reaps the result. Phenomena alone flow on, no other view than this right."

Visuddhimagga XIX19

QUOTE
"This is mere mentality-materiality, there is no being, no person"

XVIII24

QUOTE
"The mental and material (nama rupa) are really here
But here is no human being to be found, for it is void and merely fashioned like a doll"

XVII31

#8 Piotr

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 09:54 AM

Dear Robert,

thank you for your reply and sorry for my delay...

QUOTE(RobertK @ Jun 18 2006, 12:18 PM) View Post
1)the initial effort that has to be exerted when a deed is about to be performed and

2) the care that has to be taken while the deed is being performed to its completion and this leads to the subsequent ideas

3)"I can perform" and

4) "I can feel".[/i]

Thus these four imaginary characteristic functions of being have bought about a deep-rooted belief in their existence.But the elements have not the time or span of duration to carry out such functions" (endquote Thein Nyun)


How we can reconcile this statements with - for example - statements in KUSALA SUTTA, where it is clear that some kind of effort is necessary to abandon what is akusala and to develop what is kusala?

pk


#9 RobertK

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 01:40 PM

Dear Piotr,
Thanks for the question.
Right effort, sammavayama, of the eightfold path, of satipatthana, has to have sammaditthi as a conascent paccaya (condition) otherwise it is not effort of the eightfold path.
It seems the sutta is saying that there is something we should do that preceeds kusala. But rght effort must be kusala: it is a subtle sutta, where the buddha uses conventional speech.
These two threads look at effort:
http://www.abhidhamm...p?showtopic=135
http://www.abhidhamm...hp?showtopic=21

Robert

#10 Piotr

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 03:56 PM

Dear Robert,

QUOTE(RobertK @ Jul 29 2006, 03:40 PM) View Post
it is a subtle sutta, where the buddha uses conventional speech.


thank you for links about right effort. Could you give any sources concerning conventional speech used by Buddha?

pk

#11 RobertK

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Posted 31 July 2006 - 02:02 AM

Dear Piotr
"These, Citta, are merely names, expressions, turns of speech, designations in common use in the world. And of these a Tathagata makes use indeed, but he does not misapprehend them" Digha 9

I am off to thailand in a few minutes, might add some more later.
best
Robert

#12 Piotr

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 11:49 AM

Robert,

QUOTE(RobertK @ Jul 31 2006, 04:02 AM) View Post
I am off to thailand in a few minutes, might add some more later.


yes please, and thank you.

Best wishes,
Piotr

#13 RobertK

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 04:34 AM

Sorry for the long delay Piotr,
will be back in full posting mode next week.
Rob

#14 Piotr

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 08:37 AM

Hi Robert,

there is no need to hurry. Thank you for sharing your knowledge with me.

Best wishes,
Piotr

#15 RobertK

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 04:34 AM

Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary:

QUOTE
Paramattha (-sacca, -vacana, -desanل) 'truth (or term, exposition) that is true in the highest (or ultimate) sense', as contrasted with the 'conventional truth' (vohلra-sacca), which is also called 'commonly accepted truth' (sammuti-sacca; in Skr: samvrti-satya). The Buddha, in explaining his doctrine, sometimes used conventional language and sometimes the philosophical mode of expression which is in accordance whith undeluded insight into reality. In that ultimate sense, existence is a mere process of physical and mental phenomena within which, or beyond which, no real ego-entity nor any abiding substance can ever be found. Thus, whenever the suttas speak of man, woman or person, or of the rebirth of a being, this must not be taken as being valid in the ultimate sense, but as a mere conventional mode of speech (vohra-vacana).


#16 RobertK

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Posted 21 August 2006 - 04:38 AM

One point about viriya -effort. In fact viriya is a cetasika that arises and passes it may be better to use energy as the translation than effort?

#17 RobertK

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Posted 28 March 2007 - 01:17 AM

from steve
http://groups.yahoo....p/message/55454
As mentioned in a previous post, within the context of the Dhammapada
verse #279, the commentators state sabbe dhammaa is limited to the 5
aggregates, but in other parts of the canon the commentators include
Nibbana, the asankata datu within `Sabbe Dhamma Anattaa". The Channa
Sutta of the Khandhavagga of the Samyutta Nikaya has

All formations are impermanent, all phenomena are anatta.
Sabbe sankhara anicca, sabbe dhamma anattaa'ti.

The commentaries state in reference to this passage:

Sabbe sankhara anicca'ti sabbe tebhumakasankhara aniccaa.
Sabbe dhammaa anattaati sabbe catubhumakadhammaa anattaa.

All formations of the three planes are impermanent; all phenomena of
the four planes are nonself.
--
Chapter XVIII – Planes, of the Patisambhidamagga explains the 4
Planes:

There are these fours planes: the sensual-desire sphere, the material
sphere, the immaterial sphere and the unincluded sphere.

What is the unincluded plane? The unincluded paths and fruitions of
the paths and the unformed principle (asankata datu): these are the
unincluded plane.
--

Steve


#18 RobertK

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Posted 21 September 2007 - 11:34 AM



Question: Is suffering caused by the self?

Answer: Do not put it that way.

Question: Is suffering then caused by external factors?

Answer: Do not put it that way.

Question: Is suffering then caused both by oneself and external factors?

Answer: Do not put it that way.

Question: Is suffering then caused neither by oneself nor external factors?

Answer: Do not put it that way.

Question: In that case, is there no such thing as suffering?

Answer: It is not that there is no such thing as suffering. Suffering does exist.

Question: In that case, is it that Venerable Gotama does not see or know suffering?

Answer: It is not that I do not see or know suffering. I do indeed know and see suffering.

Question: May the Blessed One please tell me then, please instruct me, about suffering.

Answer: To say 'suffering is caused by the self,' is the same as saying 'he who acts receives the results (suffering).' This tends to the eternalist view (sassataditthi). Saying 'suffering is caused by other agents,' as a person who experiences sharp and painful feelings would feel, is just like saying, 'one person acts, another suffers.' This tends to the annihilationist view (ucchedaditthi). The Tathagata, avoiding those two extremes, proclaims a teaching that is balanced, thus, 'With ignorance as condition there are volitional impulses; with volitional impulses as condition, consciousness ... with the complete abandoning of ignorance, volitional impulses cease; with the cessation of volitional impulses, consciousness ceases ...' [S.II.19]

* * *

Question: Are happiness and suffering caused by the self?

Answer: Do not put it that way.

Question: Are happiness and suffering caused by external factors?

Answer: Do not put it that way.

Question: Are happiness and suffering caused by both the self and external factors?

Answer: Do not put it that way.

Question: Are then happiness and suffering caused by neither the self nor external factors?

Answer: Do not put it that way.

Question: In that case, then, do happiness and suffering not exist?

Answer: It is not that happiness and suffering do not exist. Happiness and suffering do exist.

Question: In that case, does the Venerable Gotama neither know nor see happiness and suffering?

Answer: It is not that I neither see nor know them. I do indeed both see and know happiness and suffering.

Question: May the Blessed one please inform me, please instruct me, about happiness and suffering.

Answer: Understanding from the outset that feeling and self are one and the same thing, there is the clung-to notion that happiness and suffering are self-caused. I do not teach thus. Understanding that feeling is one thing, self is another, there is the clung-to notion that happiness and suffering are caused by external factors. I do not teach thus. The Tathagata, avoiding those two extremes, proclaims a teaching that is balanced, thus, 'With ignorance as condition there are volitional impulses; with volitional impulses as condition, consciousness ... with the complete abandoning of ignorance, volitional impulses cease; with the cessation of volitional impulses, consciousness ceases ...' [S.II.22]

#19 RobertK

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 04:10 PM

Dear Rob E and Alex

Let me share a passage from the Expositor, Analysis of Term pg 99
 
<<Of these objects, this moral consciousness of the first main type arises
having as visible object a certain desirable, pleasing, agreeable and
captivating colour as a sign of beauty in blue-green, yellow, red, or white
flowers, rainment, minerals, or metals. "But is not this desirable object the
fundamental cause of greed?  How then as this consciousness good? (an objector
might ask).   (The answer is): It has become good by virture its being
determined, bent, trained and laid to heart (Abhujita).  To expand: A person 
thinking "I ought to do meritorious deeds," has his mind "determined for moral
acts, 'bent' ony on moral acts by inhibiting immoral acts, well 'trained' by
constant practise of good.  And has 'laid to heart' thorugh such sufficing
conditions as residence in a suitable place, (assistance from or)  dependence on
good associats, hearindg the good Las, merit performed in former existence etc. 
Thus by virtue of determination,
inclination, training, and idea, there occurs to him a moral thought.>>
 
Cheers
KC

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




#20 RobertK

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Posted 06 July 2015 - 01:41 AM


“Bhikkhus, there are these four kinds of persons found existing in the world. What four? One who understands quickly; one who understands through elaboration; one who needs to be guided; and one for whom the word is the maximum. These are the four kinds of persons found existing in the world.”
(Ugghaṭitaññū Sutta, A. ii. 135)

Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes:

(1) “The person of quick understanding is one for whom the breakthrough to the Dhamma (dhammābhisamaya) occurs together with an utterance. (Pp-a: Ugghaṭita means the opening up of knowledge (ñāṇugghāṭana); the meaning is that one knows as soon as knowledge opens up. Together with an utterance: as soon as [a statement on Dhamma] is uttered. The breakthrough occurs together with knowledge of the Dhamma of the four truths.)”
(2) “The person who understands through elaboration is one for whom the breakthrough to the Dhamma occurs when the meaning of what has been stated briefly is being analyzed in detail. (Pp-a: This is the person able to attain arahantship when, after a concise outline of the teaching has been set up, the meaning is being analyzed in detail.)”
(3) “The person to be guided is one for whom the breakthrough to the Dhamma occurs gradually, through instruction, questioning, careful attention, and reliance on good friends.”
(4) “One for whom the word is the maximum is one who—though hearing much, reciting much, retaining much in mind, and teaching much—does not reach the breakthrough to the Dhamma in that life.”

Nett 125 (Be §88) correlates these four types with the four kinds of practice (see 4:161–62): the ugghaṭitaññū puggala with one emancipated by pleasant practice and quick direct knowledge, the vipañcitaññū puggala with one emancipated by either painful practice and quick direct knowledge or by pleasant practice and sluggish direct knowledge, and the neyya puggala with one emancipated by painful practice and sluggish direct knowledge. The padaparama puggala is not emancipated and thus the four alternatives do not apply.