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Discussion June 1 (bangkok) 2013

transcripts dssf patipati practice

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#1 RobertK

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 04:26 AM

from dhammastudygroup.org

 

http://www.dhammastu.../2013-06-01.mp3

 

Bangkok (at the Foundation): 1 June

A.Sujin, Sarah Jon, Sukinder and Betty.

 

 

Woman 1: And he had a little discussion with us when we met in Sydney, and then she met us and our friends and had a little more discussion, but she is not very familiar with the pali terms. And she just can’t form … in Thailand where she, I think you have visited a Buddhist temple there.

 

Someone: Yeah, yeah.

 

Woman 1: … came from Chennai, where she spent two weeks, at a temple there.

 

Someone: *Laughs* yeah, a temple, where you pray.

 

A.Sujin: Is retreat better than not retreat?

 

Woman 2: The retreatments are very, um, rewarding. And challenging. And I find it very difficult to leave to retreat. I could have stayed there for, uh, much, much longer. And I therefore, found it very hard to get back to daily life and, you know.

 

A.Sujin: So whats the different between retreat and no retreat?

 

Woman 2: it was silence. It was a silent retreat.

 

A.Sujin: And do you have any idea what silent is?

 

Woman 2: uh, not silent in my head but, silent. External silence.

 

A.Sujin: Is there no attachment to silence?

 

Woman 2: I think I got very attached to silence.

 

A.Sujin: So, you want more attachment, because you don’t want to leave retreat right?

 

Woman 2: Yes.

 

A.Sujin: and that is why people like to have so much attachment. And be afraid to lose, that pleasant feeling of that thing attached to you. Is attachment right understanding?

 

Woman 2: attachment is right understanding?

 

A.Sujin: Is it? Is attachment right understanding?

 

Woman 2: aa, I am not sure.

 

A.Sujin: And can attachment understand anything?

 

Woman 2: umm, no.

 

A.Sujin: not at all?

 

Woman 2: no. Its not good to have an attachment. But, you cannot help having attachments.

 

A.Sujin: Having more attachment or less?

 

Woman 2: He taught that, you cannot help having attachments.

 

A.Sujin: Right.

 

Woman 2: Therefore, you mustn’t

 

A.Sujin: to go and control, when retreat is controlled?

 

Woman 2: Right.

 

A.Sujin: in a proper place, or um, somewhere, you think its nice?

 

Woman 2: Yeah

 

Man 1: but you know, some people can go to places, just to enjoy.

 

A.Sujin: Enjoy? What is enjoyment?

 

Man 1: …..

 

A.Sujin: Yeah, and its adhere. It’s the only thing which is attached.

 

Man 1: so its okay, its just attachment.

 

A.Sujin: Attachment is attachment, you cannot understand reality or anything as it is.

 

Man 1: so someone can go to retreat, to not understand but to get

 

A.Sujin: to get more attached. From the moment one get closer, and stay there for how long, there is more and more attachment. Otherwise, it is not attachment. It is understanding. With that conditions for understanding. Science is not a condition for understanding at all. Otherwise, Buddha wouldn’t teach anything.

 

Man 1: ……

 

Woman 3: when I think of one of these kinds of retreats, days ago, when they just have silence. And the problem with this is, you cannot discuss what they are teaching with anyone. Like its very difficult to even ask questions to the teacher. And I found the whole experience to be, I, I didn’t have attachment to it at all and I had the very opposite. I found it to be, almost a waste of time. For myself, for people who find it good, but for myself I found it to be a waste of time. Simply because, it wasn’t teaching me anything and what it did teach was wrong. It taught of form of, um, what the teacher called it, meditation.

 

Man 1: ….

 

Woman 3: it cannot… um, what Sujin was saying, anyone who went to retreat, its mostly attachment you didn’t want to leave because there are more attachments. So she doesn’t necessarily think that, she knows there is something that is not pleasant for her, i0’ts not something necessarily different from, for example, when are in Sydney together, we go swimming because we enjoy, or go out for a nice meal , because we enjoy it. And it’s the danger just when one thinks it is. Also, for developing understanding.

 

A.Sujin: what is here at this moment, or at that moment or those moments? And can that, um, it be understood? Or it can be known as it is? This is the point between knowing, understanding and not understanding what's better. Realities are realities, when you talk about swimming or going to somewhere, they are moments, conditioned to be such and such, uncontrollable. But right understanding can see it as not self. Just very temporarily, realities, conditioned, are rising and falling away in pieces, where are they now? Every moment is like that, this is the way to let go, not get attached to. And this is a teaching of Buddha. Because he taught everyone to to not be attached to anything. To what? That was just gone. Completely, right now, see? So it has to be right understanding, so you can understand the reality, which arises now and falls away now. Otherwise there is no way to say or think that it is uncontrollable, in understanding, it's not you. It rises and falls away. Understanding is not a … at all. It helps. To know what’s through and what’s not through. For example, what is seen now, see, why there is attachment? Or is there no attachment? Of that which is seen or is it there, instantly? Uncontrollable, taking something for permanent. But realities or conditioned realities, are not permanent at all.

 

Pause

 

A.Sujin: Why do we study, any subject? Because we like to know or understand it. Right. And this is a great subject. So it begins at this moment. There can be interaction to see the reality of this moment, more and more. To have attachment for, taking something permanent, when nothing is permanent. Is it funny to claim to something, which is not coming back, not at all. Just cling and cling and cling, like in a dream. And can you think of the reality, as it is,  by yourself? Anywhere, when you in a silent place, secluded place, alone there, by yourself, can you? Having such an understanding by yourself? Or you need the teachings, from the person who has enlightened, truth, of everything. See, there is something it seems, when there is seeing, but what is there which is seen? What reality is there, which can be seen? Can hardness be seen? Can sound be seen? Can smell be seen? What is now which appears, that there is a reality which is seen right now? What is it which is seen? *Laughs* no understanding but there is clinging, instantly to which is seen? Without the teachings of the Buddha, no one can think about it, as it is.

 

Pause

 

A.Sujin:  And what is touch, see. There is clinging to that which is touched, but there is no understanding of touching, that which can be touched. And it’s gone. Everything arises and falls away, instantly, all the time. So the teachings of Buddha is all about what appears now, when there is no understanding, it’s like a blind person, who cannot understand, that which appears. Is there anyone, on the screen of the television? *laughs*

 

Woman 2: See, I find, when you explain it, when you break it down like that, I, I understand that, when its working down, in that moment. And then I try and think about it in my own daily life, in that moment, I find, I find it very difficult to, to

 

A.Sujin: Let go?

 

Woman 2: Let go and remember these right understanding, in my life, to understand it, these moments.

 

Man 1: …..

 

A.Sujin: and that’s, that’s normal.

 

Woman 3: When you first hear of Dharma, you see it in different terminologies, its like all a bunch of different ideas thrown at you, its only after a while, when you study them for a while, contemplate them, its then the understanding arises, and everything falls into place. Its nothing to worry about, don’t worry about it.

 

A.Sujin: its when you hear a sound, touch an object, the hardness, that you understand, the moment, the reality, experienced through different senses. But instantly we are lost into our dreams, and the stories and the fantasies, and that’s why we have to hear a lot, hear a lot of reminders, to get back to the normal, reality. So one needs to have a lot of discussions, to realize what is real now, because if we don’t hear the actual sound, when a visible object is seen, then when we are in a temple or in an acquired place, somehow the realities are actually better, whether here or there, not a visible seeing, just hear, hear. The sound only. The truth about this moment, while swimming or here or there, to get back to the real moment.

 

Woman 4: You understand when you come back to the routine of meditation, that you try to, embrace the ….. the attachments, to the thing called, um, meditation, practicing. But many, not realize that, just to be attached to, umm, while listening, some people think it’s a part of meditation.



#2 RobertK

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 04:27 AM

continued

from dhammastudygroup.org

http://www.dhammastu.../2013-06-01.mp3

 

A.Sujin: If we don’t talk about people, place or things, just the truth, is it alright? So there are two different kinds of realities, one is understanding, the opposite of ignorance, what is better?

 

Woman 4: Understanding.

 

A.Sujin: Understanding? So now, we know understanding anything is better than not knowing at all, right?

 

Woman 4: Yes

 

A.Sujin: So, what is it to this moment that should be understood? Or what if it is not now, if it is not what appears now, then what understanding what?

Woman 4: so, um, at one moment, there are many things, understanding things, appearance.

 

A.Sujin: Thinking! That is thinking! But if we don’t talk of this and that, just what appears though? We don’t need any word, because it is appearing. We don’t have to call it, this object, or people, hardness or sound or anything. Just that which appears, is there anything that appears now?

 

Woman 4: Yes

 

A.Sujin: can that be object of understanding:

 

Woman 4: Yes

 

A.Sujin: otherwise there won’t be any understanding of anything at all. Just think about understanding this or that, what should be the object of understanding, is what should appear now. So we don’t need to talk about people of place.

 

Woman 4: Yes, but I am just saying that there are many things that appear at a moment, and one can experience, at one moment, this or that.

 

A.Sujin: One at a time? Okay.

 

Woman 4: Yes. One at a time. But different people and different objects to be experienced.

 

A.Sujin: Right now, what is one object that can be understood?

 

Woman 4: one object, um, touching

 

A.Sujin. Touching? Okay. Just talk about touching. In order to understand better and better about touching. Not a book, not a tablet, right? So is it you, who touch? So what is that which touch?

 

Woman 4: Just the hardness or softness.

 

A.Sujin: what is the object of touching? You said touching, hardness cannot be touched. But how can you know its hard, if there is no touching? Hardness can only appear true, to the reality that touches it. Nothing about it?

 

Woman 4: Yes

 

A.Sujin: So, what is that which can touch? Can experience that hardness you said. Is it a reality or no reality? Or is it you or someone?

 

Woman 4: that’s a reality.

 

A.Sujin: A reality, so this means a way to understand what you mean by reality. No one ever sees a reality, its not you, its not me, it’s a dog or cat or anyone, who see it. We don’t talk about prayers, meditation centre or teachers or anyone just talk about the truth.

 

Woman 4: Yes.

A.Sujin: mhm, so how can there be more and more understanding of this? Not just knowing that it can be touched. That’s not enough. Because there is touching, there is seeing, hearing, which are different from touching, which means touching is gone. At the moment of seeing, at the moment of hearing, can this be a direct experience, to see there is no self, not just say there is no self at all. Not just a word but the understanding of a reality, not a wrong view about, whatever appears as something permanent or  me or I or self. Because each reality, arises by conditions. This thing, this I can pinch, this I am seeing, what appears now cannot appear. That it is real, it’s a reality. Different from other kinds of reality. All of them are different, they do not belong to anyone at all. Just arise and go away. But there is clinging without understanding. Taking it for something permanent. And that is a wrong understanding. So one has to understand what is right understanding and what is wrong understanding. No self, no one. Is this a point of discussion to understand what’s the truth and what’s not the truth? At the wise, we talk in order to know or not to know, to understand or not to understand, whatever appears now.

 

Woman 4: What I still wonder is that when at this moment when I am listening to you, and then you tell us about what appears now, by using one of the six senses, so then, um, the student, when they have a habit to come back to us, about what is …. Meditated habit.

 

A.Sujin: What do you mean by meditated?

 

Woman 4: I mean in a Nama

 

A.Sujin: What is that?

 

Woman 4: Some people, um, practice

 

A.Sujin: What is practice? What do you mean by practicing?

 

Woman 4: when they try to be mind…

 

A.Sujin: They try to be mind….. Is it right? Through understanding.

 

Woman 4: not sure, it can be understanding.

 

A.Sujin: It is understanding. No one can control seeing. When there is no condition for awareness. And this cannot arise at all. How can awareness and understanding arise, without understanding?

 

Woman 4: Its like aaa, to be concentrated or mind….

 

A.Sujin: what do you mean by mind?

 

Woman 4: Their mind is what experiences the reality.

 

A.Sujin: So its not you?

 

Woman 4: No its not me.

 

A.Sujin: Okay. What does it experience now? The mind?

 

Woman 4: can I talk about what, at this moment

 

A.Sujin: Not you. We are talking about what experiences. Experiences.

 

Woman 4: it can be experience, knowing the rising and falling. It can be experienced.

 

A.Sujin: Not yet. Not yet. Now can there be understanding of that which is touched, something? A hand or a microwave? It must be conditions for such an understanding. Touch it and understand, is it a reality that arises and falls away. Not yet. Because there is an idea of something. Its not understanding to take something that appears for permanent all the time. 

 

Woman 4: Yes. So can it be felt, the arising of wrong understanding?

 

A.Sujin: panna, that which can understand anything. Then it is accumulated, more enough to understand, whatever appears. Even attachment. It is a reality. It does arise and stay for a long time. Not just temporarily. You can talk about it, but now, where is it? See, we are understanding, a particular reality. Which arises and falls away in split seconds. So that’s why we learn to know about realities. To be conditioned for right awareness. To just arise and falls away. With right understanding of that particular object. Not other objects by conditions. Not go somewhere else and try to have it. There is still idea of self and there is still idea of I can do it, right. Can you do anything?

 

Woman 4: the right understanding arises and falls away.

 

A.Sujin: then there are conditions.

 

Woman 4: Yes.

 

A.Sujin: By seeing it can arise with that conditions. With our conditions, seeing can arise. With our conditions, panna right understandings can arise. So the idea is of right and wrong. The understanding of reality, as it is. Conditioned. Arises and falls away, of what is right and what is wrong. This is right understanding. What is wrong is you think you can do. Going somewhere, sit, being something, and hope for panna to arise. But what does panna know? What does right understanding know?

 

Woman 4: ……

 

A.Sujin: When there are conditions, panna arises. Its in the study, if there is no self from the beginning, the right understanding beging to develop. From time to time of understanding, like seeing. It just experiences objects without having to hear. Its conditioned. There are many conditions for seeing to arise not just one.

 

Woman 4: So can conditions be created.

 

A.Sujin: No. have you heard about all Dhammas or … the … all dhammas, without exception. Uncontrollable. If are ambitious to have great have great understanding, but that’s not the way.

 

Woman 4: as I understand like you often say, by considering the listening and by considering about the reality.

 

A.Sujin: Citta and … different ones, at a time.

 

Woman 4: so as I understand, what is creating the common sense for right understanding?

 

A.Sujin: Not by anyone, but by conditions. How can there be Patipati and what does Patipati mean in …. ? It does mean to do or to practice, Pati is particular and pati is to approach, they are particular objects with understanding, by conditions, by …, with a … no conditions for patipati. And you can see what conditions even, right attention. Should a Buddhist teach you. Buddha said, or taught everyone to be true, and said all dhammas are conditioned. True or not.

 

Woman 4: Yes.

 

A.Sujin: don’t forget, because you said that, some said that it was true, but the idea of going somewhere is there. See, who goes? What for? The Buddhist saying is, go somewhere, or he taught that at that very moment, for those who listened, tried to understand, what he taught about. Like seeing now, where talking about seeing to understand better and better, but it’s a reality, no self who sees, its conditioned.



#3 RobertK

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 06:11 AM

Continued:

A.Sujin: don’t forget, because you said that, some said that it was true, but the idea of going somewhere is there. See, who goes? What for? The Buddhist saying is, go somewhere, or he taught that at that very moment, for those who listened, tried to understand, what he taught about. Like seeing now, where talking about seeing to understand better and better, but it’s a reality, no self who sees, its conditioned.

Each moment, just falls away and never come back at all. Its only one conditioned by previous ones, added more and more conditions for the next and the next. If there is understanding now, there can more understanding. Then there are thinking and considering about the truth of what when who and read more and discuss more. To understand now that there is no self at all, just one reality, different from the others, by conditions, each one is not self.

 

Woman 4: so now we often come back to seeing an object, or hearing

 

A.Sujin: Why not?

 

Woman 4: or is it just liking of seeing a visible object or thinking about visible object

 

A.Sujin: You know why? Because there is no seeing, but thinking as well. And thinking is not seeing. No one can stop thinking, no one can stop seeing. Because they are conditions for all realities, which arise.

 

Woman 4: yes so we know we just think it but

 

A.Sujin: but you have to see the difference between seeing and thinking, otherwise I see and I think, or hear a sound, but thinking is me, it is conditioned too. Can you control your thought? The thinking?  Select such and such moment of thinking, to be wholesome?

 

Woman 4: …..

 

Someone: She means, we may not be able to select but it may be changed.

 

Woman 4: no, I mean that the mind can be trained.

 

Someone: changed?

 

Woman 4: no, trained, T, trained.

 

Someone: Oh, trained.

A.Sujin: Who trained?

 

Woman 4: mind can be trained.

 

A.Sujin: Okay, so it is like a clear comprehension, about realities as realities. Not yet.

 

Woman 4: but thinking, for the right understanding, but sometimes it can or sometimes it cannot.

 

Man 1: ….

 

 Woman 4: its like, you often remembers about the object,…. To that object then you … continuously.

 

Man 1: ….

 

Woman 4: that’s what I mean, sometimes, it can, aaa, we can, I mean, sometimes the mind forms the objects can …. But sometimes it cannot because of some outside audience.

 

Man 1: ….

 

Woman 4: I just mean, the rise and fall of feelings is there. If the object,

 

Man 1: it’s the whole concept, not dhamma.

 

Woman 4: if the characteristic of that, aa, the reality when the rising arise and the falling arise, thus, it can experience

 

Man 1: rising and falling of what? The brain you mean? Or dhammas?

 

Woman 4: actually, that can be, it can be, a reality arise then, can be a characteristic of what is told by the reality, actually its not just one, it’s a series of moments.

 

A.Sujin: so we talk about one reality at a time, to understand it better. Just one at time, okay?

 

Woman 4: okay. Actually it is a series of moments, with different realities that can be experienced.

 

A.Sujin: You talk about reality or you just talk about the word? Like breathe? When you talk about breathe, what is it that you call breathe?

 

Woman 4: the reality of hotness, or coldness.

 

A.Sujin: but hotness is not coldness at all.

 

Woman 4: but it can be experienced.

 

A.Sujin: hotness, heat, cannot be experienced. Its different Rupas, or not just one. Not a combination. They arise together, but they are different. So hotness is not heat. So what is breathe? What it appears, what is it?

 

Woman 4: but it is falling

 

A.Sujin: no, not falling, before arising.  So can you experience the arising and falling away of it? Or you just know a reality, which is hot, which is cold. At that very moment, it appears, without touching. It cannot appear. Hotness cannot appear without touching. So is touching breathe, its hot. So is hotness here is breathe?

 

Woman 4: …..

 

A.Sujin: who experience it? Chitta right? Can we see it at the moment of touching? So different moments, different conditions. No one there.

 

Woman 4: yes.

 

A.Sujin: can you create anything? Can you?

 

Woman 4: I think its like,

 

A.Sujin: because, you see that because you think there is I

 

Woman 4: I mean, because we keep on thinking and we keep on considering what we are seeing at the moment.

 

A.Sujin: because there is no I at all. Its not I who create it. Because there is no I. But the realities are for each conditions, each reality, so at later, what are the conditions, for each realities to arise. Otherwise, we cannot let go the idea of self. That who can do. Because there is no I at all. No one at all. There are only realities.

 

Woman 4: yes no one create at all.

 

A.Sujin: yes no one. No one. No one. *laughs*

 

Woman 4: no one.

 

A.Sujin: okay. What is reading?

 

Woman 4: at this moment it can be seeing.

 

A.Sujin: okay seeing. Can seeing understand the word?

 

Woman 4: No.

 

A.Sujin: so seeing the word cannot understand the word. Then what can understand the word?

 

Woman 4: so the seeing here can be panna or

 

A.Sujin: there are different dhammas, different realities. No one there. From the very beginning to the end. You cannot find the self in any reality. Hardness is not, thinking is not, seeing is not. So what is reading? See itself is not reading. Thinking itself is not reading.

 

Woman 4: yes, yes. That is what I want to know…..

 

A.Sujin: we can’t see our six worlds right. Seeing. And then after that there is thinking of that which is seen. So after seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching, its all a kind of thinking. After seeing, after hearing. Just hearing does not bring any understanding at all. But there is a reality which thinks, about the shape, the degree of sound, and take it for something, in different languages. And that is thinking. So reading is not just seeing, but seeing and thinking. About that which is seen. Are you reading now?

 

Woman 4: no, I am seeing.

 

A.Sujin: not at all? Though you are seeing. So are you reading now?

 

Woman 4: No.

 

A.Sujin: there is seeing and after that there is thinking. You take it for something like an alphabet. We have eyes, the ears. See the idea, exactly the same. So when there is the understanding of a reality. It has to be that reality. No one can change seeing to thinking and no one change. No one can see thinking at all. Impossible. Thinking is thinking, there can be thinking after seeing. Or even if there is no seeing. Memory, condition, …, touches on the experiences which has been experienced, with an idea of something all the time.   At that moment we call it thinking, but actually it’s a moment of … which from memory with our memory, one can think of anything at all. So it’s a condition of thinking and other, …, no self. No one. And what is breathe again? There is breathing, and breathe now, but no understanding, but the Buddha enlightened the realities as they are, in details. No one can think about it. So what is breathe?

 

Woman 4: when sati can arise with chitta, and the object of citta can be a reality, or can be a concept

 

A.Sujin: is that the answer of what is breathe? *laughs* so you don’t know what is breathe? So no one knows that we can breathe by thinking. We need to learn and understand what Buddha taught. And see whether it is true or not. Whether it is truly what you know that the one can change, to truth of reality at all. That is … dhamma. The absolute realities. Ultimate realities.

 

Woman 4: … that here understand what he practice….

 

A.Sujin: this is what he experienced. Didn’t he directly experience breathe as breathe. To say what is breathe? Or does he think what is breathe. See, this is the different level of understanding. Thinking is not the direct experience. At moment of direct experience, no word, hardness appears. The moment when it appears its hard. Because it is there, already experienced. So what is breathe? See … out by yourself. All realities cannot be thought about to know, they are realities. Because of ignorance from life to life. And depart of accumulations, or ignorance, at each moment of seeing, hearing, touching we know how great it is. So it cannot be understood whatever appears. And we cling to understand the hearing little by little. By thinking over it.

 

Woman 4: so how can, how can, it be understood? By reading and reading about it?

 

A.Sujin: You hope to have it.

 

Woman 4: ….

 

A.Sujin: what about understanding?

 

Woman 4: ….

 

A.Sujin: understanding or hoping? Reality is to be hoped, wished, to know or understand.

 

Woman 4: so to develop the right understanding, at this moment, is by remembering?

 

A.Sujin: just understanding what we are talking about. Buddha taught, to those who listen, who hear, to that which appeared at that very time.

 

Man 1: …..

 

Woman 4: I think its not a matter of breathing and considering.

 

Man 1: ….. so what appears now is the reality……

 

Woman 4: .. a object of reality, not understand.

 

Man 1: its just the beginning of understanding. You just hear and understand. This is what is Buddhist intellectual. You try to understand.

 

Woman 4: so its usually experienced by one of the six senses. Suddenly you notice a book and a table, you read a book about a topic, and tomorrow you keep reading the book. Is it all because of a condition.

 

Man 1: its about thinking according to situation, about what is reality. Seeing, thinking, hearing, touching, that’s how it is.

 

A.Sujin: did you go to meditation centre, to understand seeing or what? You went to meditation centre to have the understanding of seeing or what?

 

Woman 4: to have the understanding about, …..

 

A.Sujin: So what does you mind understand now?

 

Woman 4: there are a lot of refinements, and you need to be purified,

 

A.Sujin: directly or just think about it?

 

Woman 4: sometimes I just think about, I think its just the experience and not what we think.

 

A.Sujin: You mean, excuse me?

 

Man 1: ….

 

Woman 4: actually you cannot ….

 

Man 1: you mean the stories of our refinement?

 

Woman 4: refinement of, umm, cittas or some reality.

 

Man 1: …..

 

A.Sujin: Its not permanent, not at all.

 

Woman 4: …

 

A.Sujin: just arise to see, and falls away. Just arise to hear, just arise to think. In split seconds and then completely gone, that’s the meaning of … and it has to be direct experience. Not when you have a lot of …. And how can one know the difference between chitta and chitra(something)

 

Woman 4: by reading? *laughs*

 

A.Sujin: so that is taught, by Buddha, from his direct experience. That anyone can develop panna.

 

Woman 4: … so anyone can understand that or cannot experience.

 

A.Sujin: Buddha just thought about this or experience it himself directly and he taught those who listened to his teaching, until they became Sottapanna, sakadagami, arahata. So no more ignorance, because of the direct experience, not just seeing. Otherwise what is meant by arahata? Just think about realities and the direct experience, any reality or what? Even the word, Citta andcetasika s represent, realities, right, different ones. Citta is not cetasika, and how can there be understanding directly of the distinction of chitta and cetasika because of the experience of satitpathana, …., …., citta…., and dhamma…. See citta is not …. So how can there be the direct understanding when you have not heard about it, or think that you understand one already, but there has to be moment of direct experience, so can there be? From accumulation of understanding of what the Buddha taught about whatever appears now. Arising and falling away, otherwise there must be the idea of self, never let go the idea of self. Each word is different, because of their different characteristics. Which can be directly experienced. To really know that they are different ones.

 

Woman 4: Yes, yes.

 

A.Sujin: so what is citta and what is any cetasika. They are not the same.

 

Woman 4: Yes.

 

A.Sujin: yes, yes *laughs*

 

Woman 4: so can I ask about one accumulation?

 

A.Sujin: okay, okay.

 

Woman 4: can you explain for me about contemplations.

 

A.Sujin: no one can, other than realities. When … and …, right attention, …., with our panna, it has just …, object which bring  more …., because of seeing, each chitrasikkas performs its own functions, it has its own characteristics. That’s why they are different. Seeing is the memory, we deny its no…, otherwise when we mistake the word Satitpatana, why it is pattana? Because it is a word, of an object, directly. Not just think about it. When there is thinking about a teaching. About citta and cetasika , there is no satitpattana. Because it is not, moment of being aware, of a reality, with right understanding, begin to study, begin to be used to the characteristic, which is not self at all. Little by little. Even right now, not in or at any particular place. But it depends on understanding of the teachings of the Buddha, when its true. When its true that one can follow the truth, the right path, leading to directly experiencing the arising and falling away of realities right now, and that is meant in…… which is translated as meditation wrongly. Because its not meditate, it’s a way of developing the understanding. Do you think that one can have, a wrong, right understanding without understanding seeing right now?

 

Woman 4: ….

 

A.Sujin: because it is panna, which can eliminate wrong understanding, little by little. And all wrong views are gone. No more at all. So, what did you get from meditation centre?

 

Woman 4: normally, we, um, we do things with the idea of….

 

A.Sujin: do you need to go there to know this?

 

Woman 4: No. and after that we understand that there is nothing that can calm the body, the hand, those are just elements of, but you just thought that, after sometime, umm, can experience, a bit, not, um, not only ..

 

A.Sujin: once you know and understand correctly, can it be lost? Can you come to ignorance again.

 

Woman 4: it can be lost, because of some,

 

A.Sujin: and never come back?

 

Woman 4: it can come back in some conditions

 

Man 1: lost not in the sense that you have understanding now and then you forget it.  Once something its accumulated, it is accumulated. It is passed on from one citta to the other. It can’t be lost.

 

Woman 4: ….



#4 RobertK

RobertK

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 06:24 AM

Man 1: it is citta, not a part of Rupa. But in some dhammas. ….. attachment accumulated, that’s why it grows. So same with panna when it is accumulated. It cannot be lost. How can it be just standing there and its lost and you are starting from zero.

 

Woman 4: we don’t think in the same way, that, sometimes I understand and sometimes I don’t.

 

Man 1: its not about different moments, we are talking about understanding. Can it be lost? What is accumulated, can it somehow be lessened? Is there a tendency to attachment, suppose you have accumulated something for a long time that attachment grows, can it disappear?

 

Woman 4: so is it in the same way, when the object,…. so then it becomes an accumulation.

 

A.Sujin: right now, a visible object appears cause of understanding. But it falls away, but that understanding can be conditioned for understanding of that visible object again in future. But if we have the idea that the awareness can be aware continuously of visible object or one object, then this is not right. Because as you said before, to arises and it falls away.

 

Man 2: you asked quite a few times about purifying the mind, so I would like to ask what you understand about purifying the mind.

 

Woman 4: that’s why I want to listen the teaching from … to understand about purifying.

 

Man 2: so what you think what does it mean, have a guess. About purification of mind. Is it have anything to do with dhammas?

 

Woman 4: as you said guess, well, at that moment when there is wholesome chitta and then there is not wholesome citta.

 

Man 2: so the, so when this,… love and kindness, is that the purification of mind.

 

Woman 4: it can be the Rupa.

 

Man 2: Metta?

 

Woman 4: can you say it again?

 

Man 2: Metta.

 

Woman 4: Metta.

 

Man 2: so can it be Rupa?

 

Woman 4: it can be, but when there is, but but it can be rupa.

 

Man 2: so when you talk about purifying the mind, I think about a process. Because if we say wholesome mental stage of purifying the mind.

 

Woman 4: its also like a wholesome mental stage arise, and then, aa, falls away.

 

Man 2: so, any moment of understanding the dhammas, would that not be purification of the mind?

 

Woman 4: if it is great understanding, then it would be wholesome mental stage;.

 

Man 2: but it is a particular kind of wholesome mental stage?

Woman 4: I don’t know how many kinds of wholesome mental stages are there.

 

Man 2: some more wholesome than ….

 

Woman 4: its not a, the, aaa, Rupa, …..

 

Man 2: we talked about that understanding, the touching, the hardness, you say there is a moment of touching or hardness, does it purify the mind? So is it about a moment, is it understanding? That purifies the mind?

 

Woman 4: yes.

 

Man 2: when there is an understanding of a dhammad, there is also a development of understanding, the way things are.

 

Woman 4: yes.

 

Man 2: what else is there? …. That is why we continue to carry the wrong views.

 

Woman 4: the understanding in the mind is equivalent to the object, aa, the object of the mind… senseless, the mind… aaa, cannot be wholesome.

 

Man 2: … so you keep asking about the mind, but maybe we forget, what we think about the mind, is just different dhammas. So, there is not actually a mind to be purified, its only different moments, of detachments, so if there is moments of consciousness, there is moments of the understanding being developed. The so called mind at that moment, is purified. Its purified. Just for that moment.

 

A.Sujin: you know that the mind is impure, right? What makes it impure?

 

Woman 4: cause of some, discomfort, accumulations, ignorance,

 

A.Sujin: Lobha, attachment, dosa aversion, and moha ignorance.

 

Woman 4: Yes

 

A.Sujin: so how can it be purified? What purified?

 

Woman 4: it can be, that, if the object of the mind is,

 

A.Sujin: it does not depend on the object, it depends on the understanding, the object, right now, the ,mind is impure because of ignorance, attachment and aversion. But when there is right understanding, it can be purified, ignorance, attachment, aversion, because of understanding, the nature of realities, as they are, wholesome or unwholesome, ignorance, wholesome is it, wholesome? Is ignorance wholesome?

 

Woman 4: No, its not.

 

A.Sujin: so is it dirty? *laughs* it makes the mind impure, and how can there be, the purification of the impure mind? Ignorance, is impure and right understanding is pure. With our right understanding of things, we can pure the mind, or the dirtiness of the mind. Ignorance is there. So, do you have any understanding about seeing right now, to purify ignorance? Which does not understand it as it is, of arising and falling away and it does not belong to anyone at all. No one can own it. Its gone. But you should… there, there is clinging to seeing. You got what you wished for. Everyday. You wish to see and you see now. You wish to hear and you hear now. There is hearing now. According to your wishes which you hear. But now understanding because wishing to get, not to let go. If its dirty, would you let go or would you like to get attached. To be attached to that, seeing? So one can say, that the mind is impure, its just the words. At this moment, there is no understanding of seeing as it is. Is there any understanding of impurity at this moment? No understanding, is covered up by ignorance and attachments. Its impure. So lets use the … citta instead of the mind. That which experiences an object. It seems like we live in this world quiter all the time, from birth up to now, from the day we were born, and up to this moment. We cling to that which appears, without understanding that if there is no such element which can experience whatever appears, nothing will appear. Right. If there is no reality which can directly, which can experience whatever appears now, what, which now appears now cannot appear, so it appears to just that which experience it. Like whisper object now, not appear to see anything but to hearing and thinking. It appears just to seeing. Only seeing moment. And when there is no understanding. The mind or the chitta is impure. Its not clean or clear to understand whatever appears as it is. So to purify citta, is right understanding of whatever appears, no self only different elements. The element which can experience an object, the element which arises but cannot experience anything. No one at all. Would you think anyone can just purify the mind without right understanding?

 

Woman 4: ….

 

A.Sujin: Yes.

 

Woman 4: by understanding the ….

 

Someone: *questions something*

 

A.Sujin: Yes, please.

 

Someone: can that be any purification, even at the very beginning, even for the very first time, is that right understanding? Because what you mean is, understand clear, clear understanding. So even from the beginning there has to be understanding.

 

A.Sujin: can you purify the body? *laughs*

 

Woman 4: …. *laughs*

 

A.Sujin: so how can we purify the mind and citta?

 

Man 3: you were talking about objects, what your thinking about?

 

Woman 4: what I think is, the, the mind is, aa, .....

 

Man 3: for example, now there can be the object of, visible object, or sound.

 

Woman 4: the object would be the sense.

 

Man 3: but it can be experienced with, or it can be …. Or …. Arising, to that object which can be experienced. Right. So saying the object can be followed by …. Or …. So what difference does the object make? You say that somehow …. If we talk about the purification of mind how are we not talking about the quality of the mind, rather than the object?

 

Woman 4: the mind is equivalent to this object and the object is equivalent to that mind.

 

Man 3: no I don’t understand that.

 

Woman 4: for example its like, now we have ….

 

Someone: … so usually while … the citta is wholesome but the mind is not.

 

Woman 4: So how can, how can, is the condition for that, beautiful consciousness arise?

 

A.Sujin: Understanding like now, we are hearing, discussing, understanding what can be daily objects of understanding. What can be the wholesome chitta. So by considering more we understand what is more useful, what is dirty mind, what is clean mind and what is not. That is the way that wholesome chittas can develop. Not by wanting to have a clean by, but by understanding more about realities now.

 

Someone: Is it interesting that I need to hear about, purification of the mind?

 

Someone else: I don’t understand how can you purify the mind. I don’t really understand how do you really do that? Is the mind conscious or is the mind unconsciousness is the same thing?

 

Man 1: yeah I think, what we make or think of mind, is according to the Buddha explained us. Actually the moments of consciousness. So there  is no mind of such. There are moments of consciousness.

 

A.Sujin: and what would you think is there nothing we can do to purify because there is no true understanding, more about realities? Such as what is consciousness, what is it you experience, of what you experience. But actually its just the moment when experiences arises and falls away. Such as seeing. Seeing is one kind of consciousness. Hearing is another kind of consciousness. So understanding there is actually no one who can do anything. Its an important part of understanding the nature of understanding.

 

Someone: so who is, who is that….

 

Man 3: but the seeing consciousness… but that’s after the moment of seeing the consciousness, and so, the different experience is through the different, how and what about, you know, from those who experience, the idea arises,………

 

Someone: is wrong understanding, regarding, the idea that I, see, I am the one that is thinking, those moments. The thinking that comes up, I,…

 

Man 3: it could be wrong understanding, because you used the term I, but it is not necessarily wrong. Its about I and that is wrong understanding. Its necessary to think of those terms, to communicate, those terms.

 

A.Sujin: can we just talk about the topic of seeing, without the idea of I seeing it? Possible? *laughs* Seeing, you don’t have to say whether its I or anyone else. Just seeing itself. To be sure. Its seeing, real, now. Or its only just fantasy thinking? Is seeing real?

 

Someone: Yes.

 

A.Sujin: Why?

 

Someone: it’s the eyes that see.

 

A.Sujin: because it sees. So what is it seeing to understand seeing? Now seeing sees. There is seeing. Right?

 

Someone: yes.

 

A.Sujin: and seeing sees. And we can say that, its that which sees. And what is that which sees? Not self. Not I. But it’s a reality, conditioned by the whisper object and the abyss. If the whisper objects pinches the abyss. There is no I who see at all. But whenever they are seeing, without understanding seeing, it is conditioned to arise. It cannot do anything. It just arise to see. That’s all. And after that it falls away instantly. It cannot think, it cannot know what you are seeing at all. Just arise to see at all. So its not I who sees, or anyone who sees but, the reality which is conditioned to arise and see. For or whatever appear to arise to experience, its only reality, conditioned, condition to think, condition to hear, condition to like or condition to dislike. Its conditions which is arising. Its beyond anyones control. No one can have it. Let it arise now. Its impossible, and this is the understanding, the right understanding of realities. And when its right understanding, its clean. Its not dirty, right. But its dirty because of ignorance. Attachment. Aversion. Conceit and or unwholesome realities. There are all realities in …, in Dhamma, in the sense of these realities, so we don’t have to say, this word, it depends upon what you say in your language, in Thai you say “…..”  they mean, admit the word dhamma. That is a reality. Different realities. Can there be an idea I see. But then whatever they say, they take it for I see, that’s why, we learn by reading and considering the teachings, to have ones, to have an understanding of oneself, to distinct between the other realities, and this reality. We have to use the word to communicate, what we mean, that’s all. But since there is no understanding, so whatever appears, something, because there is not direct experience in direct contact with what is arising, so there is condition shaped, a sign or something, to be noted, to be taken for something, like, class and table and things. But actually with what is seen, how can you know? Can you get this from retreat? One has to be so very truthful in order to understand it, straight forward. Is there a doubt?

 

Someone: ….

 

A.Sujin: if you say that there is, its not wrong. Because it’s a reality. What you take in your life for something of different realities, of different times. That’s all. That is doubt. Understanding is understanding. Wrong idea is wrong idea. They arise by condition to be that and then pass away, fall away. Never come back. Can you get anything from yesterday? No. can you have anything that you had yesterday? Never. Not at all. Even previous moment. That seeing is not seeing of this moment at all. And who knows this is beyond thinking. It has to be this. Direct understanding. So that one can talk about it. In details. Very clearly. Like breathe or anything. And I think that with our understanding of realities, we can say that, we talk a lot from birth up to now, without any understanding at all. Like the world, everyone seems to know what it means, but what is a world, or what is the world?

 

Questioner: ….

 

Someone: …. I am trying to understand how, when, to know how all this affect my understanding of life, my life, and it confuses me, the idea of life. So I break it into these moments, these realities, this thinking, thinking arises of the stories that arise from the realities. The unwholesomeness. And how if there isn’t any, we cannot, these whole moments, the moments which just arises and falls away, how, how, then, to …. How do I understand about ….

 

A.Sujin: is it real?

 

Someone: yes.

 

A.Sujin: … regret arises and falls away. And it arises because there is no satisfaction. So when there is the understanding of the charactersitics of regret, are, for a characteristic of… when that happens, the nerves, there is, there is a slight disattachment. From that. So that there is a feeling of remorse or whatever it is. That’s when regret arise. So that also answers your question of how you can understand it in your daily life. Or how you can understand when these realities arise, of this disattachment.

 

Man: … the moments of aversion, jealousy, anger all these things, if you talk about understanding them, how they fit in, I think you talk about trying to conceptualize, but I think what the point was that, when these things arise, they can be understood. If they are not arising, then they cant be understood. When we talk about awareness and understanding we are talking about developing of awareness, we are talking about …

 

Someone: if we are not talking about that, we are talking about arising of….

 

A.Sujin: So now you know what life is? *laughs* clearly, not yet. Yeah, but no, without the reality which can experience, there is no life. Okay, its time.







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