[RobertK]

Every vipaka citta is result of kamma. And that result is because of kusala or akusala kamma done in the near or distant past. Akusala kamma by its nature can only condition vipaka which is anittham, amanapam, akanatum (unpleasant, undesired, disagreeable) and kusala kamma can only produce result (vipaka) which is pleasant.

I think this passage is relevant: From the Dispeller of Delusion(Sammohavinodani) p9-11:

"Rupa sadda (visible data, sounds)..there are none which are disagreeable that are born of profitable kamma; all are agreeable only....But a disputatious speaker (vitandavadin) said 'There is no intrinsic agreeable and disagreeable'It is according to the likings of these or those individuals)[and the vitandavadin goes on to give an example of how to people in some distant place worms are considered a delicacy whereas most people find them repulsive , he also says the same about peacocks flesh]. He should be asked 'But how? Do you say that there is no distinguishing an object as intrinsically agreeable or disagreeable?' 'Yes: I say there is not?..[it continues a little more and then refutes the vitantavadin (sectarian of another school)] ''It is through perversion of perception that the same object i agreeable for one and disagreeable for another. But there is the distinguishing of an object as intrinsically agreeable or disagreeable'.......the elder Tipitaka Cula-Abhaya said: 'The agreeable and disagreeable are distinguishable according to vipaka (kamma result) only, not according to javana (impulsion that follows the vipaka). But it is impulsion through perversion of perception (sannavipallasa)only that lusts for the agreeable and hates the same agreeable; that lusts for the disagreeable and hates the same agreeable. Only by way of vipaka however is it rightly distinguishable. For resultant consciousness (vipaka citta) cannot be mistaken. If the object is agreeable it is profitable result that has arisen; if disagreeable, it is unprofitable result that has arisen.

Although those of wrong view on seeing such exalted objects as the enlightened one(buddha) shut their eyes and feel domanassa (unpleasant feeling)[arising during the javana stage]and on hearing the Dhamma they stop their ears nevertheless their eye-consciouness, ear-consciousness , etc are only profitable kamma result (vipaka).

Although dung eating pigs on smelling the odour of dung become joyful, thinking;'we shall get something to eat' nevertheless their eye-consciousness (a vipaka) in the seeing of the dung, nose consciousness (a vipaka) in smelling its odour and tongue consciousness (a vipaka)in tasting its flavour is only unprofitable
result."" ENDQUOTE
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It is true that often we cannot be sure whether the present vipaka is the result of kusala kamma or akusala kamma. And it is not so important to know - that is why all vipaka is classifiedd as only one jati whereas akusala kamma and kusala kamma have a jati each: We must learn to distinguish kusala citta from akusala citta.

Sarah pointed out recently that even when we read a dhamma book there could be many moments when the visible object is a slight stain on the page or something else (and at that moment akusala vipaka). And if we still think in wholes and situation we cannot understand vipaka either: For instance, I mentioned a while back the case of holding a soft dogshit in the hand and how most people think this is entirely akusala. However, the commentary (see sammohavinodani p11 )notes that in such a case that the vipaka through body sense is actually kusala (because soft) while through the eyesense and nose sense akusala- for obvious reasons. In a short moment these different vipakas alternate many times, but one might not be aware of how it is changing.

Even in the above example someone might object and say 'what if there were little hard bits in the shit; wouldn't it be akusala through the bodysense then?' And, yes maybe it would in that case. But the examples are given to help us see these matters so we can study dhammas directly and see for ourselves, not to cover every possible hypothetical case.

best wishes
robert

[RobertK]

Some questions - the Vipaka vatta - the actual moment of experience through the doorways, is this 'result' because even to be born in the human realm with six senses is the fruit of kamma? Or, is each moment of experience the 'result' of a particular word or deed in another time? Could kamma be that intricate? This is where 'things get blurry' for me (as Sukin would say).....

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Vipaka vatta (result) connsists of vinnana (consciousness), nama- rupa, salayatana (six bases), phassa (contact), vedana(feeling), jati (birth), upapatti-bhava, jara-marana (decay and death).

Here vinnana (consciousness means both the vipaka cittas (seeing , hearing, smelling, tasting, touching, ) and also other vipaka conciousness including the actual rebirth consciousness (and all bhavanga cittas during this life). We are human because of the kamma (kamma-vatta)that conditioned the rebirth consciousness . It was a good kamma, but we cannot know what it was. Now the moments of vipaka citta through the sense doors (that arise countless times in a day) can be either from this same kamma that conditioned this life or they can be from other kammas. We can see this because some of the vipaka is very unpleasant - it could not come from the same wholesome kamma that conditioned this human birth. To sum up only one kamma conditioned this birth but other kammas can produce results during the course of life. Another example: animals are born as a result of akusala kamma. Yet they may experience many moments of pleasant vipaka - for example some pampered pets - during their life. Kamma is so intricate that only a Buddha can truly fathom it.

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Each person does experience the result of their own past actions, don't they? There is no general pool of suffering that, if the right conditions occur in someones' life, it attracts the 'result' of "anyones'" past action? (I feel a little silly asking that last question - but, if I don't, I'll always wonder.)
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Yes, it is entirely ones own kamma and result. However, a lifespan can be cut short by anothers wrong action (murder). There is no murderer (in the deepest sense) but there is kamma(action) being done and that action will brings its unpleasant results in the near or distant future (vipaka -vatta). Thus does the wheel spin.

If someone had an enormous store of good kamma then no killer could kill them no matter what : the Buddha for instance had so many attempts on his life but all failed. Most of us though are not so endowed. Moggallana had great powers but at the third attempt on his life for a short time they suddenly left him - this was because of an obstructive kamma done in the past. He was beaten to death.

I used to think alot on these major moments such as accident and illness in relation to kamma. But then I started to see more about the mundane moments - like seeing right now. And that is just as important as death moment actually. You see cakkhupasada (eyebase) is also vipaka-vatta and for seeing to occur it must arise , as must the visible object and the seeing consciousness. They come together as ayatana (meeting place) for an infinitely short moment - conditioned by kamma and many other conditions. Many spiritual seekers (I was one) are looking for special happenings; but if they could see how miraculous is this moment now. Then they would want to understand it more. I do like Ven. Bodhi's "the Great Discourse on causation" his translation of the mahanidana sutta and commentaries, 140pp. kind regards

robert

It is just here where I get confused with anatta and kamma, about things like "there is suffering, but no one who suffers", or when reading of a murder that there is "no gun, no bullet, and no-one who kills or is killed"; and yet 'murder' is produces severe kammic consequences......

metta,

Christine

--- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robertkirkpatrick.rm"
robertkirkpatrick@r...> wrote:

One of the sentences in my last post was clumsy. This is better. Christine, AS usual your questions are central to what the Dhamma , and thus what life , is all about. So many ways to discuss this but you might appreciate it hearing about it in relation to the Paticcasamuppada. As we have discusssed before this teaching shows that no-self exists but that only these factors are occuring. It is indeed to prevent the wrong idea of self that it was taught: "with ignorance as condition there are formations' prevents seeing a maker ; the clause with 'with formations as condition consciousness prevents seeing the transmigration of a self; the clause with concsiousness as condition, mentality and materiality' prevents perception of compactness because it shows the analysis of the basis conjectured to be 'self'; and the clauses beginning 'With nama-rupa as condition the six-fold base' prevent seeing any self that sees , cognises, touches , feels, craves, clings, becomes , is born, ages and dies" Visuddhimagga XVII302

An aspect of the Paticcasamuppada I like to contemplate is The three rounds : kamma-vatta(action), vipaka-vatta(result) and kilesa-vatta (defilements ). These thre cover all 12 links of the Paticcasamuppada. Kilesa vatta consists of avijja(ignorance), tanha(desire), and upadana (grasping). Kamma vatta consists of sankhara (formations)and kamma-bhava. Vipaka vatta connsists of vinnana (consciousness), nama-rupa, salayatana (six bases), phassa (contact), vedana(feeling), jati (birth), upapatti-bhava, jara-marana (decay and death).

The actual moments of experience through the doorways (seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling) are vipaka (result) but because of defilement(kilesa) arises kamma. These rounds are all spinning now, continually, as they always have in samsara. The three rounds are all conditioned and closely related. Someone sees an expensive car: that is the concept. What actually happens is visible object conditions seeing consciousness (vipaka). Because kilesa (avijja and lobha)the root cause are not eliminated they may condition kamma (such as working extra hard to get money - or maybe even stealing the car). In the future that kamma will bring a suitable result (vipaka vatta)... and so the round goes on and on...But no self anywhere.

Of course the example above is just a to give a broad idea. In fact kilesa vatta and kamma vatta can be considered to be occuring also in the same moment - it depends in what ways we are considering it. That is why paticcasamupadda is so deep and hard to understand.

best wishes

robert