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Sense objects during Jhana?


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#21 RobertK

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Posted 19 November 2006 - 09:19 AM

Hi Seeker,

http://www.lioncity....p...30482&st=60
QUOTE(SeekerOfDharma @ Nov 18 2006, 09:04 AM)

QUOTE
Another interesting tidbit. Thinking is present even in state of nothingness!!! 7th Jhana!

"Then there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, thinking, 'There is nothing,' enters & remains in the dimension of nothingness."



If you mean that vitakka or vicara might still be present in this formless attainment, then I think you are reading too much into the word "thinking". In fact some translators of the above passage would prefer to place the word "thinking" in brackets, for it does not translate any word that is present in the Pali, but is simply an explanatory addition on the part of Ven. Thanissaro. Other translators insert other things to convey the meaning. For example Bhikkhu Bodhi inserts "aware that", which accords much better with the commentarial understanding, and Maurice Walshe inserts "seeing", which is exactly the commentarial understanding (passati). In the Abhidhamma the seeing in this case is understood to be an operation of attention (manasikara), not of applied or sustained thought.


QUOTE
"As he remains at the peak of perception, the thought occurs to him, 'Thinking is bad for me. Not thinking is better for me. If I were to think and will, this perception of mine would cease, and a grosser perception would appear."



Again the passage in Pali has nothing to do with thinking, but with cognizing (ceteti) and intending (abhisankharoti).

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu

#22 RobertK

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Posted 07 April 2007 - 01:13 AM

Dear Dm...

You wrote
Vimuttimagga and Visuddhimagga explicitly acknowledge the perception of external stimuli in rupa-jhanas: Visuddhimagga (X, 19)

The Visuddhimagga is talking about arupa jhanas and emphasises how very far they are away from any sense impressions. You take this to mean that the Visuddhimagga explicity says that in rupa jhanas sense impressions are possible. But in fact two paragraphs earlier Buddhaghosa writes,

QUOTE
Of course these [sense impressions] are not to be found in one who has entered upon the first jhana etc. either, for consciousness at that time does not occur by way of the five doors[/[I]i] Still the mention of them here should be understood as a recommendation of this jhana for the purpose of arousing interest in it.Vis. X17


You see Jhana is not like normal moment where consciousness is flitting from one door to another. Jhana is a state beyond human, if sound or any other sense object intrudes it shows that at that moment there is no jhana.
Robert

#23 RobertK

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Posted 07 April 2007 - 01:14 AM

Katthavatthu PTS translation by Aung and Davids pages 331-332.


QUOTE
XV1118 Of Hearing in Jhana
From the commentary [by Buddhaghosa] Controverted point - That one who has attained jhana hears sound."The opinion is held by some - the Pubbaseilyans , for instance- that because the Exalted one called sound a thorn to first jhana, and if sound if not heard cannot be thorn in the flesh of one who had attained that state, it was inferable that such a one was able to hear.


It takes over a page for the Theravada to show why this is wrong

#24 RobertK

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Posted 17 July 2009 - 07:10 AM

from sarah abbott
http://groups.yahoo....p/message/99261


Back to the neglected #98417 on the Anupada Sutta:-)

Apologies for long quotes at the beginning for context, given the time lapse:

>>Sarah: (Formless-Sphere Moral Consciousness - 4)
>
> (1) Moral Jhaana consciousness dwelling on the "Infinity of Space",
>
> (2) Moral Jhaana consciousness dwelling on the "Infinity of Consciousness",
> [S: the object is the first aruupa jhaana citta]
>
> (3) Moral Jhaana consciousness dwelling on "Nothingness",
>
> (4) Moral Jhaana consciousness wherein "Perception neither is nor is not".
> [S: the object is the third arupa jhaana citta]
>
> These are the four types of aruupa-jhaana Moral consciousness."
>
> S: In other words, the objects of these (the highest jhaana cittas)have
> their own specific objects. There is no 'investigation of dhammas' in them
> and they are only 'portals' or 'bases' or proximate conditions for path
> consciousness if they are directly understood as impermanent, conditioned
> dhammas after they've fallen away. This is in just the same way any other
naama
> or ruupa can be the proximate condition or 'portal' for path consciousness
> if it is directly understood as an object of satipa.t.thaana just prior to
> enlightenment. Whether it be lobha, dosa, jhaana citta or visible object -
> any dhamma at any time can be the 'portal' for enlightenment if the
> conditions are in place.

> ================================
>Howard: As one example, Sarah, in the Anupada Sutta, please compare what
> occurs within the 7th jhana with what occurs within the 8th:
>
> __________________
> 16] "And the states in the base of "Nothingness" - the perception of the
> base of "Nothingness" and the unification of mind; the contact, feeling,
> perception, volition and consciousness, the enthusiasm, decision, energy,
> mindfulness, equanimity, and attention - these states were defined by him one
> by one as they occurred; know to him those states arose, known they were
> present, known they disappeared. He understood thus: "So indeed, these states
> not having been, come into to being; having been, they vanish." Regarding
> these states he abided un-attracted, un-repelled, independent, detached,
> free, dissociated, with a mind rid of barriers. He understood: "˜There is an
> escape beyond this", and with the cultivation of that attainment, he
> confirmed that there is.
.....
S: These are the factors accompanying the 7th jhana which has voidness as its
object. The reviewing consciousness cittas which immediately succeed the jhana
cittas 'review' and know the cittas, their object and the mental states
accompanying them, just as the reviewing consciousness cittas immediately
succeeding the lokuttara cittas (in the processes of enlightenment)experience
those cittas, cetasikas and object (nibbana).

From the Guide in CMA, ch 1
"The base of nothingness (aaki~nca~n~naayatana): the third immaterial attainment
has as its object the present non-existence, voidness, or secluded aspect of the
consciousness pertaining to the base of infinite space. By giving attention to
the absence of that consciousness, the third immaterial absorption arises taking
as its object the concept of non-existence or nothingness
(nattthibhaava-pa~n~natti) in respect the the first immaterial consciousness."

S: There is no other object of this jhana citta itself. The cetasikas (mental
factors) listed in the sutta are factors accompanying the citta.

In the Bodhi/Nanamoli notes to this sutta, it explains under the first jhana:
"The first five states in the list are the jhaana factors proper of the first
jhaana; the following states are additional components each performing their
individual functions within the jhaana. This minute analysis of mental states
into their components anticipates the methodology of the Abhidhamma, and it is
thus no coincidence that the name of Saariputta is so closely linked with the
emergence of the Abhidhamma literature."

S: As Connie has pointed out, each jhana citta is accompanied by many mental
factors, including all those which arise with every kind of sobhana
(beautiful)consciousness. It is the jhana factors (jhaananga)(such as the five
in the case of the first jhana) that distinguish one jhana from the next in
terms of increasing refinement of the absorption as the grosser jhana factors
are eliminated.
....
> Howard: 17] "Again, bhikkhus, by completely surmounting the base of
"˜Nothingness"
> Sariputta entered upon and abided in the base of neither perception nor
> non-perception.
> 18] "He emerged mindful from that attainment. Having done so, he
> contemplated the states that had passed, ceased and changed, thus: "˜So
indeed, these
> states, not having been, come into being; having been they vanished.
> Regarding those states, he abided un-attracted, un-repelled, independent,
> detached, free, dissociated, with a mind rid of barriers. He understood:
"There is
> an escape beyond this," and with the cultivation of that attainment, he
> confirmed that there is.
> -----------------------------------
> Within the 7th, Sariputta was able to define various features "one by one
> AS THEY OCCURRED [emphasis mine];
....
S: A note in the Bodhi/Nanamoli translation explains this difference in wording
when it comes to the 8th jhana:

"This indirect introspective method must be used to contemplate the fourth
immaterial attainment because this attainment, being extremely subtle, does not
enter into the direct range of investigation for disciples. Only fully
enlightened Buddhas are able to contemplate it directly."

S: This is interesting as it seems to even include Sariputta. In the case of the
other jhana cittas and factors, they can be known 'as present objects' by the
immediately succeeding cittas (for these disciples), just as seeing or visible
object can be known 'as present objects' by succeeding mind-door cittas in the
development of satipatthana.

Thanks for pointing out the wording, Howard. I'm glad I took my time to check
the texts:).

Metta,



#25 RobertK

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 03:51 AM

In jhana
kāmasańńā ceases, Anupubbanirodha Sutta (AN 9.31) http://www.accesstoi...ht.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

vācā ceases, as mentioned in Rahogata Sutta (SN 36.11) www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn3 ... .than.html
vācā means speech (verbal fabrication)

#26 RobertK

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 08:54 AM

1. DN 9 http://www.accesstoi....09.0.than.html look for this passage:
"Quite withdrawn from sensual pleasures, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, the monk enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. His earlier perception of sensuality ceases, and on that occasion there is a perception of a refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of seclusion. On that occasion he is one who is percipient of a refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of seclusion. And thus it is that with training one perception arises and with training another perception ceases."
2. AN 9.31 http://www.accesstoi...9.031.than.html says:
"When one has attained the first jhāna, the perception of sensuality has been stopped."

#27 RobertK

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 05:47 AM

http://www.accesstoi...n.111.than.html

Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of nothingness, Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.

#28 RobertK

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 05:59 AM

AN 9.35

"Suppose there was a mountain cow — foolish, inexperienced, unfamiliar with her pasture, unskilled in roaming on rugged mountains — and she were to think, 'What if I were to go in a direction I have never gone before, to eat grass I have never eaten before, to drink water I have never drunk before!' She would lift her hind hoof without having placed her front hoof firmly and [as a result] would not get to go in a direction she had never gone before, to eat grass she had never eaten before, or to drink water she had never drunk before. And as for the place where she was standing when the thought occurred to her, 'What if I were to go where I have never been before... to drink water I have never drunk before,' she would not return there safely. Why is that? Because she is a foolish, inexperienced mountain cow, unfamiliar with her pasture, unskilled in roaming on rugged mountains.

"In the same way, there are cases where a monk — foolish, inexperienced, unfamiliar with his pasture, unskilled in being quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, and entering & remaining in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation — doesn't stick with that theme, doesn't develop it, pursue it, or establish himself firmly in it. The thought occurs to him, 'What if I, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, were to enter & remain in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance.' He is not able... to enter & remain in the second jhana... The thought occurs to him, 'What if I... were to enter & remain in the first jhana... He is not able... to enter & remain in the first jhana. This is called a monk who has slipped & fallen from both sides, like the mountain cow, foolish, inexperienced, unfamiliar with her pasture, unskilled in roaming on rugged mountains.