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Bodily feeling


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#1 Mitta

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Posted 30 March 2008 - 10:06 PM

Hi,

The Abhidhamma teaches that when a bodily sensation is felt it is either painful or pleasant; there is no indifferent bodily feeling. But the Suttas say that the bodily sensation has the three types of feeling.
How is this contradiction to be explained?


Thank you.

#2 RobertK

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Posted 31 March 2008 - 02:34 AM

Dear Mitta
The Abhidhamma is correct. You will have to supply the quote from the sutta but I think it is referring to the entire sense base process which includes several different cittas(not only the actual moment of contacting the sensed object).
robert

#3 Mitta

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Posted 31 March 2008 - 04:41 PM

Hi,

For example this Sutta:

SN 48.38 Vibhanga Sutta An Analysis (of the Feeling Faculties) Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu :
QUOTE
"Monks, there are these five faculties. Which five? The pleasure-faculty, the pain-faculty, the happiness-faculty, the distress-faculty, the equanimity-faculty.

"And what is the pleasure-faculty? Any physical pleasure, physical comfort born of body-contact to be experienced as pleasure & comfort. That is called the pleasure-faculty.

"And what is the pain-faculty? Any physical pain, physical discomfort born of body-contact to be experienced as pain & discomfort. That is called the pain-faculty.

"And what is the happiness-faculty? Any mental pleasure, mental comfort born of intellect-contact to be experienced as pleasure & comfort. That is called the happiness-faculty.

"And what is the distress-faculty? Any mental pain, mental discomfort born of intellect-contact to be experienced as pain & discomfort. That is called the distress-faculty.

"And what is the equanimity-faculty? Anything, physical or mental, to be experienced as neither comfort nor discomfort. That is called the equanimity-faculty.

"With regard to this, the pleasure-faculty & happiness-faculty are to be seen as a feeling of pleasure. The pain-faculty & distress-faculty are to be seen as a feeling of pain. The equanimity-faculty is to be seen as a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain. Thus, by this exposition, the five are three; and the three, five."


#4 RobertK

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Posted 01 April 2008 - 03:55 AM


This is the pali. I think my first post clarifies though.
8. Tatiyavibhaṅgasuttaṃ

508. ‘‘Pańcimāni, bhikkhave, indriyāni. Katamāni pańca? Sukhindriyaṃ, dukkhindriyaṃ, somanassindriyaṃ, domanassindriyaṃ, upekkhindriyaṃ.

‘‘Katamańca, bhikkhave, sukhindriyaṃ? Yaṃ kho, bhikkhave, kāyikaṃ sukhaṃ, kāyikaṃ sātaṃ, kāyasamphassajaṃ sukhaṃ sātaṃ vedayitaṃ – idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, sukhindriyaṃ.

‘‘Katamańca, bhikkhave, dukkhindriyaṃ? Yaṃ kho, bhikkhave, kāyikaṃ dukkhaṃ, kāyikaṃ asātaṃ, kāyasamphassajaṃ dukkhaṃ asātaṃ vedayitaṃ – idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, dukkhindriyaṃ.

‘‘Katamańca, bhikkhave, somanassindriyaṃ? Yaṃ kho, bhikkhave, cetasikaṃ sukhaṃ, cetasikaṃ sātaṃ, manosamphassajaṃ sukhaṃ sātaṃ vedayitaṃ – idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, somanassindriyaṃ.

‘‘Katamańca, bhikkhave, domanassindriyaṃ? Yaṃ kho, bhikkhave, cetasikaṃ dukkhaṃ, cetasikaṃ asātaṃ, manosamphassajaṃ dukkhaṃ asātaṃ vedayitaṃ – idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, domanassindriyaṃ.

‘‘Katamańca, bhikkhave, upekkhindriyaṃ? Yaṃ kho, bhikkhave, kāyikaṃ vā cetasikaṃ vā neva sātaṃ nāsātaṃ vedayitaṃ – idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, upekkhindriyaṃ.

‘‘Tatra, bhikkhave, yańca sukhindriyaṃ yańca somanassindriyaṃ, sukhā sā vedanā daṭṭhabbā. Tatra, bhikkhave, yańca dukkhindriyaṃ yańca domanassindriyaṃ, dukkhā sā vedanā daṭṭhabbā. Tatra, bhikkhave, yadidaṃ upekkhindriyaṃ, adukkhamasukhā sā vedanā daṭṭhabbā. Iti kho, bhikkhave, imāni pańcindriyāni pańca hutvā tīṇi honti, tīṇi hutvā pańca honti pariyāyenā’’ti. Aṭṭhamaṃ.


#5 Mitta

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Posted 02 April 2008 - 03:03 PM

Hi,

In the case, for example, of an arm resting on a table which the proprieties the body is sensitive (heart, fire, air) aren’t causing injure, there’s no unpleasant feeling but the feeling doesn’t seem necessarily pleasant. Or is the simple absence of painful feeling in a bodily contact considered a pleasant feeling in the Abhidhamma?



#6 RobertK

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 02:26 AM

QUOTE(Mitta @ Apr 3 2008, 12:03 AM) View Post

Hi,

In the case, for example, of an arm resting on a table which the proprieties the body is sensitive (heart, fire, air) aren’t causing injure, there’s no unpleasant feeling but the feeling doesn’t seem necessarily pleasant. Or is the simple absence of painful feeling in a bodily contact considered a pleasant feeling in the Abhidhamma?

Unpleasant feeling can be very, very subtle. Touching a hard object like a table is different from touching a soft object, thus almost ceratinly it comes with unpleasant feeling rather than pleasant.

#7 Mitta

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Posted 10 June 2009 - 10:10 PM

Hi,

I've found more about this in “Cetasikas“, http://www.vipassana...cetasikas4.html :

QUOTE
Bodily feelings arise because of impingement of "a pleasant or unpleasant object on the bodysense. The kaya-vinnana cognizes the pleasant or unpleasant object which impinges on the bodysense, phassa 'contacts' the object and vedana experiences the "taste" of the object. The feeling which accompanies kaya-vinnana is either pleasant feeling or painful feeling, it cannot be indifferent feeling. In the case of the other panca-vinnanas (the five pairs of sense-cognitions, seeing, hearing, etc). One of each pair is kusala vipaka and one akusala vipaka. which are seeing, hearing smelling and tasting, the accompanying feeling is always indifferent feeling, no matter whether the vipakacitta which experiences the object is kusaIa vipakacitta or akusala vipakacitta.

The Paramattha Manjusa, a commentary to the Visuddhimagga (XIV, note 56) explains why kaya-vinnana is accompanied by either pleasant feeling or unpleasant feeling. This is because of the 'violence of the impact's blow '; there is the direct impact of tangible object on the bodysense. Tangible objects which are experienced through the rupa which is the bodysense are the following rupas: soIidity, appearing as hardness or softness, temperature, appearing as heat or cold, and motion, appearing as oscillation or pressure. By way of a simile the difference is explained between the impact of tangible object on the bodysense and the impact of the other sense objects on the relevant senses. When a man places cottonwool on an anvil and strikes it with an iron hammer, the hammer goes right through the cottonwool because of the violence of the impact. In the case, however, of the other panca-vinnanas, the impact is gentle, like the contact between two pieces of cottonwool. Thus, they are accompanied by indifferent feeling. The 'impact' of visible object on the eye-sense is gentle when compared with the direct physical contact of tangible object with the bodysense. We may believe that bodily feeling can be indifferent, but this is not so. The moment of body-consciousness (kaya-vinnana) is extremely short; it is only one moment of vipaka and after it has fallen away akusala cittas or kusala cittas arise. Body-consciousness Is accompanied either by pleasant bodily feeling or by painful bodily feeling. The akusala cittas or kusala cittas which arise shortly afterwards are accompanied by feelings which are different from bodily feeling. They can be accompanied by happy feeling, unhappy feeling or indifferent feeling.