[RobertK]

Dear Group,
This series of posts looks at the Theravada position according to the Commentaries and also the claims of arahatship in recent history

I see on another forum where someone muses that a year should be long enough to attain sotapanna if he tries hard under a good teacher. And another quoted a passage frorm a Thai monk which said anyone who had been ordained for 5 years should have at least attained sotapanna. These goals are taken seriously and then people decide they should find an arahant to train under and ensure their progress. Sometimes these keen individuals have little knowldege of Buddhist teachings but like the idea of a quick way to Nibbana (about which their ideas are may be confused).

It becomes potentially dangerous to the sasana as a whole, when many people later convince each other that they have attained this or that stage, as wrong release becomes the goal.

[RobertK]

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/20908

Dhamma Issues 5, no 1. The Disappearance of Ariyans

Introduction.

At the Buddha's time the Order of the monks was established, but there was not yet an Order of bhikkhuní, nuns. Mahåpajåpatí, the Buddha's aunt, wanted to obtain permission from the Buddha for the ordination of women who wanted to go forth. The Buddha refused at first, but after Ånanda had interceded, her request was finally granted, but it was subject to eight strict conditions. These eight rules pertained among others to the conduct of nuns towards the monks, to the ceremony after the rainy season, the Invitation Festival, when they had to avow offences seen, heard or suspected. In case of offending against an important rule, a nun had to undergo a discipline for half a month before both Orders.

The Buddha foresaw that accumulated defilements would cause both monks and nuns to commit transgressions against their purity of life. This would be the condition for the true Dhamma, saddhamma, to decline more rapidly. He explained to Ånanda that if women had not been allowed to go forth from the home into the homeless life, the Dispensation would have lasted for thousand years. But now it would only last for five hundred years. With the decline of the Dispensation arahats would disappear from this world. In this Issue the consequences of the decline of the Dispensation have been explained.

*******

Issue of Analysis : Are there at the present time still arahats?

Conclusion regarding the analysis of this issue :

At the present time there is no one with the excellent qualities of the degree of the arahat. The sources which support the conclusion of the analysis:

1. Book of Discipline (V), Cullavagga X, Eight Important Rules for Nuns (the Brahma-faring will not last long).

2. Gradual Sayings, Book of the Eights, Ch VI, The Gotamid, §1, Mahåpajåpatí, and its Commentary, the Manorathapúraní.

3. Sumangalavilåsiní, Commentary to the ³Dialogues of the Buddha², III, no 28, The Faith that satisfied (Sampasådaniya Sutta).

The sources that explain the reasons for this conclusion:

The Vinaya, Book of Discipline (V), Cullavagga X, Eight Important Rules for Nuns (the Brahma-faring will not last long) and the Gradual Sayings, Book of the Eights, Ch VI, The Gotamid, §1, explain about the endurance and the disappearance of the true Dhamma (saddhamma) in the dispensation of the Buddha Gotama. We read that the Buddha said to Ånanda:

³If, Ånanda, women had not obtained the going forth from home into homelessness in the dhamma and discipline proclaimed by the Truth-finder, the Brahma-faring, Ånanda, would have lasted long, true dhamma would have endured for a thousand years. But since, Ånanda, women have gone forth... in the dhamma and discipline proclaimed by the Truth-finder, now, Ånanda, the Brahma-faring will not last long, true dhamma will endure only for five hundred years....²

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/20878

Dhamma Issues 5, no 2. Disappearance of Ariyans

The Commentary to the Sutta The Gotamid, in the Gradual Sayings, the Manorathapúraní, gives an additional explanation:

³The words vassasahassam, thousand years, that are used here, refer only to the arahats who were endowed with the four analytical knowledges (patisambiddhas[2]). But when we take into consideration the following thousand years, there were only arahats who are sukkha vipassaka (who only developed insight and did not attain jhåna). In the next period of thousand years (the third period) there are anågåmis (who have attained the third stage of enlightenment, the stage of the non-returner). In the next period of thousand years (the fourth period) there are sakadågåmís (who have attained the second stage of enlightenment, the stage of the once-returner).

In the next period of thousand years (the fifth period) there are sotåpannas (who have attained the first stage of enlightenment, the stage of the streamwinner). Thus, the saddhamma, the true dhamma, of the level of pativedha, realization, can, according to this reckoning, last for five thousand years. Even so pariyatti dhamma (of the level of intellectual understanding) can endure for five thousand years. Without pariyatti dhamma there can be no pativedha dhamma [3]. This means that when pariyatti dhamma has disappeared the monkhood will have changed into something else.²

It can be concluded that at the present time, which is the third period of thousand years in the dispensation of the Buddha Gotama, nobody has the excellent qualities of the degree of the arahat, and the highest attainment will only be that of the anågåmí.

In the Sumangalavilåsiní, Commentary to the ³Dialogues of the Buddha², III, no 28, The Faith that satisfied (Sampasådaniya Sutta), the decline of Buddhism in the Buddha era of a former Buddha, Kassapa Buddha, has been explained, not the dispensation of the Buddha Gotama. We read:

³... the lineage of recluses dressed in white is not able to cause the endurance of the dispensation since the time of the Buddha Kassapa. The dispensation could endure only thousand years with those who have attained the four analytical knowledges, another thousand years with those who had the six supranatural powers (abhiññås 4), another thousand years with those who had three knowledges (tevijjå 5), another thousand years with those who had ³dry insight² (sukkha vipassakas), and another thousand years with those who observe the Påtimokkha. Thus, the Dispensation declined beginning with the penetration of the truths by the bhikkhus who came afterwards, and the transgression of the precepts by the bhikkhus who came afterwards. Since that time the appearance of another Buddha had no obstruction anymore [6] .

Footnotes

2. All arahats have eradicated defilements completely, but arahats have different degrees of excellent qualities. Only the arahat with the highest attainment has the four analytical knowledges.

3. The ³Dispeller of Delusion² (the Commentary to the Book of Analysis, Commentary to Ch 16, Classification of Knowledge) is one of the texts explaining about the disappearance of the teachings. We read (431): ³For there are three kinds of disappearance: disappearance of theoretical understanding (pariyatti), disappearance of penetration (pativedha) and disappearance of practice (patipatti). Herein, pariyatti is the three parts of the Tipiìaka; the penetration is the penetration of the Truths; the practice is the way....²

4.These are: magical powers, divine ear, penetration of the minds of others, divine eye, remembrance of former existences and extinction of all defilements.

5.These are: remembrance of former lives, divine eye, extinction of all defilements.

6. When the dispensation has disappeared completely there are conditions for the appearance of another Buddha.

[RobertK]

This is a post from an American monk who spent many years in Burma

In Triplegem@yahoogroups.com, bhantevimalaramsi@j... wrote:

Dhamma Greetings,

I hope this finds you peaceful and calm.

By reading your emails I have come to assume that you are from Burma. I have spent a lot of time around Burmese monks and about three years in Burma doing intensive meditation. So your comment about there being arahats in Burma is interesting to me. Where have you seen or met one, I would very much like to go and talk with them. I have spent time with the Mingoon [sorry I don't remember the spelling] Sayadaw who was the chief monk for giving answers at the 6th Buddhist council. He was truly an inspiration to be around. I asked him directly a few questions about whether a monk should practice the Buddha's teachings through the commentaries or the suttas and his answer was definitely to follow the instructions in the suttas and read the commentaries to see if they agreed with the suttas, and if they do to use them but sparingly.

This advice is from a monk who wrote many commentaries himself.

Also, I asked him monk to monk if he knew of any arahats that I could visit because I was so keen on practicing meditation properly. He was a very well known monk and had vast experience in living in Burma, he told me that he didn't honestly think there were any arahats left in Burma. He also said that many laymen had such faith that any monk who showed any ability at all that was special, all of a sudden they became arahats to them. I have been around many great monks who are very inspiring and sensitive, and have asked about arahats and none of them actually knew where I could find one, this includes the Taungpulu Sayadaw, U Pandita Sayadaw, and the Chanmay Sayadaw to name a few. Of course I know that the idea is to never talk about these kinds of things, but monks do talk about these things privately. Of course, the trick is getting past the claim of arahatship and getting to the reality of it. And there are ways that one can recognize an arahat if one knows what to look for and spends the time to be with that monk.

The idea that simplicity makes for complexity doesn't make much sense unless one doesn't experience much progress in their meditation. I have kind of observed this to be true with certain types of meditation, but not with all of them.

If samadhi is the only theme in the Anapanasati Sutta then why does it have the 4 foundations of mindfulness and the seven factors of enlightenment in it? There are two kinds of desire one is an unwholesome type that leads to more dukkha and the other is called chanda in Pali which is the wholesome desire that directs one's mind in the direction they what it to go. Without any desire then we would all just sit on a rock and do nothing or strive towards a final goal.

I do wish you happiness and success in your quest.

Maha-Metta from Bhante Vimalaramsi

[RobertK]

Here is an extreme example. Most cases are not so obvious of course.
http://www.interactivebuddha.com/about.html

While I call myself Dharma Dan on this page, I usually go by the name Daniel Ingram.
I am an arahat with mastery of the formed jhanas, formless realms, Nirodha Samapatti, and a few other traditional attainments.

I hold an MD, an MSPH in Epidemiology, and a BA in English Literature, all from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

I am currently in a medical residency program in Emergency Medicine at the University of Louisville, Kentucky.

[RobertK]

This was cited on another list as evidence that if a layman attains arahatship he doesn't have to join the order within 7 days.
http://www.mahasati.org/dmteean.htm

Within a couple of days, on the early morning of the eleventh day of the waxing moon, the eighth month of 1957, his mind reached the End of Suffering completely without traditional rituals or teachers.

Later he returned home. He taught his wife and relatives what he had found for two years and eight months, as a lay teacher. He then decided to re-enter monkhood in order to be in a better position to teach the people. The ordination was made on February 3, 1960

[RobertK]

There was a large debate about whether a Thai monk was an arahant.

World Fellowship of Buddhists Magazine
VolXIII no1 (BE2519/1976)
From Nyanaponika Mahathera
Forest Hermitage Kandy, Ceylon
Commenting on the bio of A.Mun.

"..the shock I felt when reading the statement in the 4th section (p.135) that "a number of Buddhas togther with their arahant disciples" had paid a visit to the Acharn to "offer their congratulations upon his achievement". The controversy that understandably arises upon such a statement can I think be conclusively and decisively settled..[he then quotes sutta passagae ] Obviously , the statements abscribed to venerable Acharn Mun are in contradication with the afore quoted sutta passage. There are also conflicts with other well-known utterances of the Master on the nature of Tathagatha, on Nibbana, and the khandhas..Admirers [of acharn Mun] will have to face the dilemma and solve it for themselves, honestly without misinterpreting the Buddha- word

[RobertK]

The World Fellowship of Buddhists (in Sukhumvit road) were distributing A. Muns
biography and they serialized it. They were not at all happy with Venerable Nyanaponika's criticisim
of A. Mun. So the editor published a lengthy reply.
THis is some of the published reply:

"To Ven. Nyanaponika mahathera, Forest Hermitage, Kandy
I have received your letter dated december 1975 strongly criticising the biography of the venerable meditation master phra acharn Mun Bhuridatto. It did not come as surprise that the English version should be no less controversial than its Thai counterpart.. [it was]strongly criticised by a number or readers who could not tolerate what was contradictory to their former belief. Some of them I dare say did so out of sheer jealousy and to flatter their own egotism and vanity rather than out of genuine doubt. To such people no amount of reasoning or explanation will help. They are not seekers after Truth but are like Sanjaya and the six teachers (makkhali Gosala and others), and cannot bear to see others stand out more prominent than they do. AS far as your letter is concerned I would say that your viewpoints expressed therin are, to say the least, too strong and intolerant. <.....>

I do not understand why so many Buddhists prefer to idolize the concept of Absolute Nothingness or Total Loss like that of the materialists and attribute it to teh cessation of suffering or Nibbana. What benefit is there in clinging to the nihilist idea of nothingness, hoplessness or bleakness like that? To be well versed in the Tipitaka is never enough. That is only pariyatti, which could become a hindrance and even a snake killing whoever makes a religion or God of it. This attitude towards book- learning, unsupported by firsthand experience through practice, is called agaladdupara pariyatti. It can be another Net of Wrong View. The pariyatti or book learning may earn the students such grandiose terms as Maha, pandita etc, yet it is memory work, speculation, imgination, anything but firsthand experience or attainment. Such being the case who is in a position to misinterpret the Buddha's word. Those admirers[of book study] will have to face the dilemma and admit the incompleteness of such book-study and the delusion of high-sounding titles such as Maha, pandita ect."

<....>Nibbana, unlike the materialists death, does not end all. If acceptance of this fact should bring the Theravdins a bit closer to the Mahayanists then it is to be willingly accepted. After all it is better than a concept that brings us closer to the materialists isnt it."

[RobertK]

I stopped wondering years ago about who is enlightened because I think it is always motivated by tanha. What we can know about a teacher - beyond speculation- is whether they point to the present moment in a way that helps us to begin to insight such moments. The rest is wishful thinking. The Anguttara nikaya commentary tells the story of one teacher, after the Buddha's time, who had many pupils all of whom attained arahatship. But he was still a wordling - not even a sotapanna. However, he understood the tipitaka very, very well; knew the letter and the meaning and so was a great teacher (Angutara nikaya Ekakanipata pali (the book of the ones) Nivaranapphahana-vagga (abandoning of hindrances) 6th sutta; about the Thera Gamantapabbharavasi mahasivatthera ). He lived at Yissa Mahavihara and 60,000 students became arahant.

The commentaries explain that examples like this where a putthujana teacher helps his students to become ariya, it is like the Buddha was their teacher (because the putthujana teacher is using the Buddha's words). Later he himself attained.

RobertK

[RobertK]

http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php...04&#entry371704

Bhikkhu Santi
According to the Suttas, the least unreliable means of knowledge pragmatically are the words of the Fully Awakened One, the Suttas. Even enlightened disciples, though they know the attha of the Dhamma, can still muddle up the right phrasing (byañjanā) in ways that could make it difficult for others following primarily their teachings to reach the attha. And the commonest way to get muddled about the meaning of the Suttas is to take them out of context, which most often happens through not really applying them, i.e. by scholars who are exclusively scholars and do not `lead the teachings inwards’, as the epithet opanāyiko advises us to do. Thus it is very useful together with learning and contemplating the Suttas to live with and listen to carefully someone who has really experienced the attha of the Dhamma. I don’t believe there are any monks or nuns in the Western Sangha who have really fully experienced this, there is one monk who I believe is a likely candidate for being a stream enterer (not me!), but that’s it.

[RobertK]

I saw this in the Dhammapada-athakatha and thought it might be on interest. It is in Book 1, 13 (trans. burlingame PTS edition p.242. It is about the youngest daughter of Anathapindika, Sumana. She was already a sakagami (her father was only a sotapanna) but she had been unable to find a husband. She was gradually overwhemeld with disapointment over this and refusing to eat [or unable to eat] she lay in her bed, ill. Anathapindika visited her and she called him "younger brother" and then died. Anathapindika (sotapanna) went to the Buddha. "Although the treasurer had obtained the Fruit of conversion(sotapan) he was unable to bear the grief that arose within him. Accordingly when he funeral rites over his daughters body he went weeping to the teacher. said the teacher 'householder how is it that you come to me sad and sorrowful, with tears in your eyes weeping?'" endquote.

Anathapindika explained that what worried him most of all was that his daughter "died raving incoherently" [called him 'younger brother']. the Buddha explained that this was because she was already sakadagami while anathapindika was sotapanna . Naturally anathapindika was relieved knowing that his daughter was thus now reborn in a better world etc. Perhaps what is interesting here is that a sotapanna did not even know that his own daughter was already enlightened - and even believed that she temporarily deranged. If we judge people from their behaviour we can say "he looks always calm " But looks can be deceiving. Often we are not even aware of our own defilements and mistake subtle clinging for calmness.

Sometimes someone may be quite agitated and yet still be acumulating some wisdom. Cittas (mindstates) are changing fast. In between moments with akusala cittas(unwholesome moments) panna(wisdom) and sati can be popping in and out that are aware very briefly of some reality. And we cannot tell by looking at someone whether this is occuring. In the visuddhimagga they give an example of the type of monk who has tendencies towards lobha (desire, attachment). This type of monk walks very carefully and studiously. He moves beautifully and his robe is always kept properly and so on. It says (III92) "One of greedy temperament acts skilfully, gently, carefully and evenly". As I read it this monk has all the outer appearance that we might expect of an arahant.

We can see that we can't really know about people by outer behaviour. We can only know ourselves- and in the beginning the moments of sati may be so few and so weak that it is not clear even to ourselves. If we haven't heard details of the Dhamma and considered it and applied it properly we can delude ourself and think we have few defilements. Pleasant feeling and neutral feeling arise with awareness- they also arise with subtle craving.

What is true is that if we are genuinely gaining insight we can detect more and more subtle levels of wrong view - by discussion and listening or reading what people say. We can see who understands the path. Perhaps we find that some of the teachers we were in awe of in early days now seem stuck in subtle, or not so subtle, wrong practice.

robert

[RobertK]

Ven. S. Dhammika
The situation differs somewhat in Thailand and Cambodia but there the popular conception of what constitutes enlightenment is a very particular one. Any scruffy old laung po credited with predicting a winning lottery number or performing a miracle is hailed as an arahat. Of course more perceptive observers have a very different assessment of the general level of spirituality in the Thai Sangha. According to Paul Breiter Ajahn Chah used to say, ‘Buddhism in Thailand is like a big old tree, it looks majestic but it can only give small sour fruit.’ Combine notions like these with the Sangha’s dysfunctional, outmoded and even counter-productive practices and structure and it is not surprising that it produces so few great masters. One encounters good scholars in the Sangha, sincere practitioners and just simple decent human beings but of inspiring individuals, let alone arahats or even sotapannas, there are precious few.

[RobertK]

Hilarious stuff: http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php...c=52628&hl=

xabir2005 Jul 14 2007, 01:43 PM Post #13


Junior Contributor


Group: Members
Posts: 426
Joined: 6-March 05

I'm not sure if all of them are willing to discuss their enlightenment, but it seems like people like 'Daniel M. Ingram' a.k.a 'Dharma Dan' are very open about this. But naturally because they are open, they'll be controversial. However, other enlightened people can verify that this guy is genuine.



Dharma Dan has completely comprehend the insight to complete liberation from samsara, he has attained insights to Reality. You may want to check out his models of enlightenment and see what one has to go through. You should also read his free e-book first. (his book is a really good read and I'd highly recommend everyone to read it!)

Please remember that he comes from an authentic lineage (Mahasi Sayadaw Insight tradition) and has received permission by his teacher U Pandita to teach. In this lineage, to be qualified to teach requires at least Second Path (Once Returner, Sakrdagamin).

[Bhikkhu Pesala]

There is an thread on the BSWA Forum about Daniel Ingram, with some participation from the man himself.

BTW The teacher who allegedly authorised Danel to teach is not the famous Sayādaw U Pandita, but a disciple of his also named Sayādaw U Pandita.

[RobertK]

He trained in India and Malaysia.
All quotes from Danial Ingram aka Dharma Dan,.

As to one who asked about the sequence of my practice: Arising and Passing first time around 1984 without any training at all, stream entry 1/13/1996 while on retreat at the Thai Monastery with Christopher Titmuss, et al. in Bodh Gaya, India, (though I owe much of that to the training I received on a previous retreat at MBMC, where I got to the upeka ñana but couldn't land the path) second path on 7/21/1996, third path 11/20/1996, arahatship around 4/17/2003 on retreat at MBMC.

In short, go to the Malasian Buddhist Meditation Centre in Penang, Malaysia and practice there for as long and well as you possibly can, that's my advice! The place is amazing: the price is right, the people are so nice, the food is safe and nourishing, the water is safe, there is little if any malaria, the technique as powerful as anything that exists today, the weather is great, and the teachers I have sat with have been extremely inspiring and helpful, basically all the good stuff of Myanmar and more but without the hassles.

As to one who asked about the sequence of my practice: Arising and Passing first time around 1984 without any training at all, stream entry 1/13/1996 while on retreat at the Thai Monastery with Christopher Titmuss, et al. in Bodh Gaya, India, (though I owe much of that to the training I received on a previous retreat at MBMC, where I got to the upeka ñana but couldn't land the path) second path on 7/21/1996, third path 11/20/1996, arahatship around 4/17/2003 on retreat at MBMC.

In short, go to the Malasian Buddhist Meditation Centre in Penang, Malaysia and practice there for as long and well as you possibly can, that's my advice! The place is amazing: the price is right, the people are so nice, the food is safe and nourishing, the water is safe, there is little if any malaria, the technique as powerful as anything that exists today, the weather is great, and the teachers I have sat with have been extremely inspiring and helpful, basically all the good stuff of Myanmar and more but without the hassles.

For those interested in the story about Sayadaw U Pandita, Junior, (not to be confused with Sayadaw U Pandita of Panditarama in Burma, though they are in the same lineage) he was the abbot of the Malaysian Buddhist Meditation Centre in Penang, Malaysia (a Mahasi Center) when I did my last retreat there in April, 2003, and during that time I made very good progress. I told him that I hadn't really taught much for 6 years and was thinking of teaching again. He looked me straight in the eye, and with an unusually loud voice said, "GOOD!" That's the story of getting permission to teach.