Taints (also discussion of different levels of defilement)

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Topic
#485

• Alberto

Than Acharn: For example, the aasava, it follows the process of seeing, or even in the process of seeing there’s kusala or akusala, depending on conditions; for those who do not have accumulations for kusala to arise as quickly as that there is always akusala, whether it’s moha-mula citta [rooted in ignorance], or lobha-mula citta [rooted in attachment].
If pa~n~na does not understand seeing or what’s in that (sense door) process like hearing, or visible object and sound, no way to eliminate the attachment or ignorance from that which is seen or heard; that’s why even (though) one knows about aasava and it does not appear, but by understanding the very moment of that object which appears – it’s the only way to understand, and have less aasava: because pa~n~na is there instead of aasava.

Sarah: Ditthi, avijja, and lobha are all aasavas, why isn’t dosa an aasava?

TA: no, because it’s not as quick 🙂 as lobha and moha.

S: quick…

TA: what arises now?… guessing that it’s there… it falls away instantly; so among the fourteen (akusala) cetasikas, what arise more… rapidly? the aasava: kaamaasava, bhavaasava, ditthaasava, and avijjaasava.

Lukas: What arises more often?

S: my question was, there are four aasavas, kaamaasava, attachment to sense object; bhavaasava, attachment to … becoming…

TA: becoming? 🙂

<...>

Betty: Can we say that something arise more often than…

TA: No we, no we.

B: ok, can it 🙂 be said that aasavas arise…

TA: that is also by lobha :-), (whenever) each word is tought, so aasava is there – avijjaasava, and who knows (that)? it arises and falls away very rapidly, only studying knows that it’s beyond one’s understanding to know such moment, but by having more and more understanding it’s less and less, then one sees that that’s the way to become enlightened to the degree of arahatta.

• philofillet

10/07/2013 8:12 AM
Dear Alberto, group “Panna is there instead of aasasva…” Aasava is the alusala that is always bubbling up in response to what is seen heard tasted smelled touched? Phil

• kevinf596

Message 3 of 11 , 10/07/2013 4:37 PM
Dear Phil, Albert, all,

Phil: “Panna is there instead of aasasva…” Aasava is the alusala that is always bubbling up in response to what is seen heard tasted smelled touched? Phil

Kevin: Visuddhimagga (ХХII, 56):
“Cankers (āsava): … is a term for greed for sense desires, greed for becoming, wrong view, and ignorance, because of the exuding (savana) [of these defilements] from unguarded sense-doors like water from cracks in a pot in the sense of constant trickling, or because of their producing (savana) the suffering of the round of rebirths.”

And elsewhere Dmytro wrote:

‘Aasavaa’ are ‘openings’ through which ‘upakkilesaa’ become possible. Thus it
becomes understandable why the final Unbinding is described as extinction of ‘aasavaa’, the very ‘inlets’ of craving in sense doors.

Metta, Dmytro

Best,

kevin

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• philofillet

10/07/2013 7:17 PM
Hi Kevin Thanks, very helpful. Phil

• Alberto

10/08/2013 5:33 AM
Dear Phil, Kevin,
> Phil: “Panna is there instead of aasasva…” Aasava is the alusala that is always bubbling up in response to what is seen heard tasted smelled touched? Phil
> Kevin: Visuddhimagga (ХХII, 56):
> “Cankers (āsava): … is a term for greed for sense desires, greed for becoming, wrong view, and ignorance, because of the exuding (savana) [of these defilements] from unguarded sense-doors like water from cracks in a pot in the sense of constant trickling, or because of their producing (savana) the suffering of the round of rebirths.”

Yes, avijja, with or without ditthi and/or lobha (but not dosa and other kilesas, not yet), conditioned to ooze out instantly from the sore of the self after seeing’s just seen visible object (also when it’s an unpleasant one, I think).
Unless understanding is strong enough to directly know the non self nature of all realities, thus conditioning the ‘guarding’ of these doors.

Alberto

• kevinf596

Message 6 of 11 , Today at3:48 PM
Alberto: Yes, avijja, with or without ditthi and/or lobha (but not dosa and other kilesas, not yet), conditioned to ooze out instantly from the sore of the self after seeing’s just seen visible object (also when it’s an unpleasant one, I think).

Unless understanding is strong enough to directly know the non self nature of all realities, thus conditioning the ‘guarding’ of these doors.

Kevin: Well said!

Kevin
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• philofillet

Today at10:12 PM
Hi Alberto, Kevin, group. Are these akin to what are called medium level defilements? Nottransgression level but appearing more clearly than anusayas? I remember when I used to listen to mahasi sayadaw style Dhamma talks. They believe that through mindfulness meditation they can observe the arising of these medium level defilements and prevent them. So they walk around in slow-motion watching the mind to prevent the arising of these medium level defilements by noting them of course. It is easy to understand why they want to do that. Or why they think it is effective. But the only real guarding of the sense doors is performed by panna with detachment from eagerly wanting to guard the sense doors (wanting which only reinforces belief in self that can control and prevent the arising of deilements. ) Phil

• sarahprocterabbott

Today at12:25 AM
Hi Kevin & Alberto,

Yes, good team-work. The asavas of lobha, ditthi and avijja are so subtle that they ooze out all the time unknowingly as soon as there is seeing or hearing or other sense experiences.

Metta

Sarah

>Alberto: Yes, avijja, with or without ditthi and/or lobha (but not dosa and other kilesas, not yet), conditioned to ooze out instantly from the sore of the self after seeing’s just seen visible object (also when it’s an unpleasant one, I think).

>Unless understanding is strong enough to directly know the non self nature of all realities, thus conditioning the ‘guarding’ of these doors.

>Kevin: Well said!

• sarahprocterabbott

Message 9 of 11 , Today at1:08 AM
Hi Phil,

>P: Are these akin to what are called medium level defilements? Nottransgression level but appearing more clearly than anusayas?

S: Anusayas don’t arise at all – they are latent. Asavas are very subtle – they arise but don’t appear and aren’t known at all. So, there are many degrees of defilements, even of so-called ‘medium defilements’ and this is why different names are given to them – asavas, yoga, ogha, kilesa, nivarana. Nivarana are more apparent, but usually not of the degree of strong defilements that condition akusala kamma patha.

>P: I remember when I used to listen to mahasi sayadaw style Dhamma talks. They believe that through mindfulness meditation they can observe the arising of these medium level defilements and prevent them. So they walk around in slow-motion watching the mind to prevent the arising of these medium level defilements by noting them of course.

S: No understanding at all of the way asavas arise in an instant as soon as there is seeing or hearing, long before there is any idea about anything.

>P: It is easy to understand why they want to do that. Or why they think it is effective.

S: Lobha?

>P: But the only real guarding of the sense doors is performed by panna with detachment from eagerly wanting to guard the sense doors (wanting which only reinforces belief in self that can control and prevent the arising of deilements. )

S: Agreed!

Metta

Sarah
p.s Sukin seems to be able to send messages OK from his i-pad – that’s another option for you. If you’re looking for a computer, I do find the macbook air to be very good.
=======
Hi Sarah Thanks for your explanation about defilements.
P: It is easy to understand why they want to do that. Or why they think it is effective.
… S: Lobha? —————- Ph: There has to be ditthi as well, right. I am leaning towards iPad with an attachable keyboard cover. I use Naomi’s Air Book sometimes but somehow I don’t really like it. It’s strange the way I have been brainwashed into thinking that what I buy has to be an Apple. Anyways idle chatter. Hard to understand why it’s akusala kamma patha. Phil

• Alberto

Message 11 of 11 , Today at6:33 AM
Hi Phil, (Kevin),
> Hi Alberto, Kevin, group. Are these akin to what are called medium level defilements? Nottransgression level but appearing more clearly than anusayas?

I’ve found this (on Jan 16th 2013 – nn, 10m) – Alberto

Than Acharn: Fermented [aasava]? from moment to moment

Lukas: From long time ago

TA: yes, and long time ahead too, far ahead

Sarah: we’re talking about anusayas accumulated in each citta, they condition the aasava, the fermentations, to arise <...>

TA: anusaya [latent tendencies] cannot appear at all, while aasava can appear.
Akusala arises, of what degree? as aasava, or as nivaarana [hindrance], or as kilesa

Q:aasava

TA: more subtle. that’s why in (suttanta) tipitaka doesn’t talk about the anusaya, but talks about aasava, like the arahatta has no aasava [khinaasava], which (also) means no anusaya, so instead of saying he has no anusaya sometimes it’s said he has no aasava, because aasava can appear, while anusaya cannot appear at all

S: nivaarana [hindrance] is always stronger akusala (than aasava)

TA: right

Lukas: which ones are nivaarana?

TA: kaama-chanda byapada thina-middha uddhacca-kukkuccha

Q: They’re an hindrance to samatha and not to vipassana

TA: because vipassana can understand. but I think that we just want to remember the terms, but what about the understanding of this moment, because we’re talking about the five nivaaranas; which one is this moment? or the other one and so forth; or aasava, or kilesa – only the developed pa~n~na can know, but we learn to understand moment with awareness and moment without awareness, just to understand more about even aasava or nivaarana; because usually in a day we think about just that object so much in a day, rather than to other things, and at that moment we don’t need to call that nivaarana, but they’re all nivaarana, never leave one to be at rest.

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